Okay NC, I have spent some time thinking about your reply, and, even though I know I'm pretty slow in the synapse department, I need you to clarify EXACTLY how:
The first point I have issue with:How so? Are you suggesting that SYD based FOs are not going to come to HK to do the 'bus groundschool and a sim / flying syllabus? Freighter DEFOs currently do a groundschool that is the same duration as the SO new joiners, a sim syllabus and then of course base training before the minimum of 25 sectors flying under supervision. Correct me if I'm misunderstanding how training works, but surely that is a greater burden than the eight sims (+ 1 consolidation sim) done by new SO before s/he starts the LFUS syllabus? Moreover, SO LFUS could be done by a TFO.

The second point must surely be the actual numbers coming in. Again please tell me (and I really want to hear good news) how the imminent entry of these DEFOs will help. If in 2007 CX has a requirement for 150 FOs and fills 50 of those slots with new joiner FOs, then they are going to upgrade 33% fewer SOs than if the need was met internally. Not only that, but these new joiner FOs have a seniority number lower than mine, so they can't be considered for command until I pass them - so they are effectively 'log jamming' the system.

We have seen that some people have had a problem with JFO upgrade after a long delay as a SO. I know that we get 12 hours / year 'hands on' simulator training to keep sharp, but that is going to be woefully inadequate if we end up doing 5 or 6 years as the chief bunk maker.

change is good ??
 

Kane :

To play devil's advocate the DEFO needs no Adelaid (not that any does) and takes the FO course on entry into the company.
The DESO takes the Adelaid course the intro SO course and the FO course. Therefore, on paper more training cost per hour of productivity over 8 years. If the DEFO s were employed in Hong Kong this would be offset by higher cost by way of higher salary benefits etc. and there by make an SO a cost saving. This is the theory that was the seed of the SO programme. So if the company hired SOs on to a base and paid less than the current DEFO contract they could save even more money !!! (Shhhh don't say this too loud !!) However the only thing that seems to be preventing that is the reluctance of a number of interviewees to take SO positions. So we now have what we have, DEFO passanger based, that cost the company considerably less than Hong Kong based SOs. They are also more flexible than an SO as well.

While I can appreciate the business sense in this scheme I do not agree with it whole heartedly, as the impact on current SOs has to be negative. The plan is being sweetened by saying that you will upgrade as fast as you would if there was no expansion. Well that is great but that actually means you will upgrade slower than if there were no DEFOs. No question.

The DEFO slots should be offered with less strings to current SOs. I am sure that anywhere else in the world we could make perfectly safe FOs out of our current SOs. If that is not totally palpable we should be trying to minimise the impact by offering the DEFO slots to SOs with the qualifications. NOT making them quit, loose seniority, and join on the DEFO contract. I can see no benefit to the company by doing this. Someone please explain why the SOs are being forced to quit ?

FG

Kane toad
CX argue that they are training capacity constrained...so you could argue that by doing one less course it frees up sim time/TC time etc to allow more upgrades per annum. Thats THEIR argument...I don't think it will much difference as it will still take 9-10years...50DEFOS might save you 2-6months at best...not worth worrying about in a decade.
They save a course in that you only do one course between joining and command. So even though at the present time there are the same number of courses given SO/DEFO/Freighter FO recruitment, in 3-5years they will not have to upgrade the DEFOs...make sense?

Merry Christmas....
 

Can anyone please advise;
1. If BNE is being offered as a base for DEFO?
2. What are the min experience requirements for DEFO?
3. Does considerable experience/ command time make a difference to promotion time?
4. Are commands offered (to anyone) outside HKG?

Thanks..:)

1. No, but you can commute and bid for it in the future.
2. On the website, the reality I am not sure but expect some proper jet time.
3. Only if you are prepared to take a command your seniority allows (i.e. no one wants: North American Freighter command) and you can pass.
4. Yes. On all bases I think but Airbus pax command in Oz is possible.

E.P.

1. No
2. As per DEFO freighter. It can be found on the CX web sight.
3. No.
4. Yes in seniority order. You must return to Hong Kong though to do your command. You can re-bid for the base but it will be awarded in seniority order so no guarantees.

Kane Toed,
I have been thinking about your post. You are right in that if they need 150FOs next year and 50 are DEFO then you will be 'disadvantaged' by 50 courses. It will have NO effect on your time to command but will affect how long it takes to get a window seat. The mitigating factor is that if CX was training constrained for years, the 50 places you lose now might be made up for by having more simulator time available for CN upgrades in 3-5 years when these DEFOs would have been upgraded to FOs if they had joined as SOs! Does that make sense? Basically, no course difference now, but more courses available in the future. But it probably doesn't help you as you may be 6-8years away from CN????

Onto SYD bases...I don't think it will have any major effect on you wanting a base in SYD. It will still be seniority issued. CX couldn't fill the base and couldn't get people to join as SOs so they combined the two problems and the solution is DEFOs. In future, guys will leave the base to get upgraded and so slots will become available. From past experience they usually offer it to pax FOs....if they can't get them, and they ignore SOs, they can recruit DEFOs. Its a bit like freighter commands! CX still wants to have FOs in HKG....its just seen a temporary niche market in filling 2 bases with DEFOs. ONce they are filled, it will go back to normal. ANy vacancies on a base will be offered within the seniority list!

Hope I did a better job answering your questions, cheers adn merry xmas

EP
Bne is like the holy grail, xanadu, mecca....no one gets it unless they just finished working in management.

A potentially stupid question, but a search does not give the answer as simply as I need.........why is there such a shortage of freighter pilots?

Is the pay that bad?

Is the Classic Jumbo course that hard?

The rapid promotion process looks like a reasonable carrot.

Any, and all answers, are wolcome.

I think there are a number of reasons and they may differ dependiing on where you are talking about.

e.g there is no shortage of classic pilots to work in Oz, there is a shortage of Captains in the EU.

The pay is not great (in comparison to FO starter salaries in all areas), US based guys are leaving (744) and the command course seems not to favour freighter promotions (US).

Also it is a time of expansion so there is greater demand for crew.

I'm not sure Rapid commmand has actually happened.

With a number of bases and types you see how it is difficult to answer such a general question.

Excellent point!

although CX management has been trying desperately to confuse the S/Os that upgrade time will not be effected, and that it will still be four years.

Like the person above said, we made the decisions on coming to CX with the belief that upgrade time will reduce as the expansion is in full swing. Now that is not happening. Better yet! Some of us will probably upgrade to the A320 at KA for probably lesser money! Time wil tell.

Where is the loyalty? (Ok Ok, we're talking about CX management, forget that I said that)

I know quite a few S/Os are leaving the company in disgust.

They are too arrogant to believe this will backfire!

althought you might be correct here that the time to command will not be effected. However, FOs make more money than SOs. So the more time I spend on the jumpseat. The more $$$ I am losing out.

Sorry to crash this but have a couple of questions?

Is S/O to F/O upgrade performance based or not? If one a pilot has a stack of widebody and sim performance is good do they still wait 3-4 years?

How long before new join S/O can bid across to freighter and is this common place?

Appreciate the insight.

MAX:cool:

Everything that you do at Catha Pacific is performance based. You will be closely watched and graded.

If you are looking to cut in line and bypass seniority, it won't happen. The upgrades are "seniority based" however your performance will have to be up to CX's standard or a guy below you can take your slot while you wait out a period of "attitude re-adjustment".

If you have a "stack of widebody" {experience} perhaps it is not your best interest to join as an S/O? If you do, you will need to stay complete your 2nd linecheck, attend an INTERVIEW session (which you will be graded) then a decision will be made by a management team on whether you will be given an opportunity to attend a course.

Cathay Pacific is all about road blocks and jumping through hoops. At least your life won't be boring as CX pilot!

CX is not for the faint of heart.

Thanks A/T,

Cx arent too different than my present outfit in many aspects it seems.

What about the move S/O to freighter? Does anyone bother and if not, why not.

Cheers.

MAX:cool:

MAX would that be Brittania

A/T less
Financial effect shouldn't be too great. Lets say they recruit 50DEFOs, when you are in the senior group of 50 SOs you will get bypass pay. But you will get your upgrade later and each subsequent FO increment will also be later by the same amount. It will have a financial effect, but not as great as first glance appears! Again, there is an argument that could be made that your command might come earlier because of the training capacity constraint. So what little you lose in delayed FO increments might be made up for with earlier command!

MAX
Lots do move from pax FO to freighter CN...resistance is usually due to pay/basing availablity and I believe there is a higher failure rate...but no numbers to back that up. Not sure about SO-freighter...usually that choice has been made at the recruitment stage...more senior guys usually go onto freighters.
cheers

Numero Crunchero

One thing you missed with bypass pay is that the SO must be deemed suitable for upgrade to JFO i.e. Cat “A”. I have no idea weather the company is playing games by delaying Cat “A”ing SO’s to avoid bypass but there is strong arguments that there is a bit of that going on with FO’s to Captain because of the extensions past 55. Just a thought.

Merry Christmas and a great New Year mate.
404.:ok:

Titan,
they don't delay SO's.They play the game.I can confirm this.

goingdown

Thanks for the correction. Out of interest how long is it taking on average for a DESO to be Cat “A”? When I joined it was twelve months.

Still around 12 months. It seems to happen post Mod 6