Cathay vs Air Canada as a career?
 

I hope to be joining CX or AC as an "Off The Street" (non-regional) with ~ 6,000 hours, ~ 3,000 jet (over 2,000 medium jet > 70 Tons) plus management time, etc.

Base preference: Vancouver (or Hong Kong if CX) #1, Toronto #2.

Pension = ? Which is the better of the two?

Pay = ? (Overall, I mean. The first years are known but will one pay better than the other in terms of pocket cash? Taxes a big factor, of course.)

Time to command = ? All I can find out is at CX it is about 4 to 5 years on the freighter side to command. AC = ?

All things considered, gaze into your collective crystal balls and help my look down both streets from the cross-roads here. And just the facts as best guessed, please. The bashing and naysayers have already spoken. I would appreciate best speculations on the above. Thanks very much.

PS I have searched extensively on these matters but can't find specific recent info.

(Title edited to clarify the subject)

Well lets have a go at it shall I?

Base preference: Vancouver (or Hong Kong if CX) #1, Toronto #2.
You meet the requirements for a Freighter F/O but you could also join as a Pax S/O. As a Freighter F/O you will be NA based for 3 years following training at LAX, JFK, ANC. You will have to commute if you decide to live anywhere else on your dime. After training and the 3 year time on frieghters you could transfer to pax and apply for a YVR base. Total time from hire to a YVR base if available would be about 3 1/2 to 4 years time.
Or, if you joined as a S/O you would be in Hong Kong for the first 5-6 years approx. till able to bid for a base. This would be the best approach if you want YYZ as you could try to get a Airbus assignment when going for JF/O.

Pension = ? Which is the better of the two?

CX doesn't have a pension but they pay you 15.5% gratuity every month which you can take as cash or invest in a restricted mutual fund family. AC has a pension but we have seen what can happen to pensions if an airline goes bankrupt...look south!

Pay = ? (Overall, I mean. The first years are known but will one pay better than the other in terms of pocket cash? Taxes a big factor, of course.)

CX is much better as AC takes many years to catch up and even more years to make up for the loss of revenue in the first 5-10 years.

Time to command = ? All I can find out is at CX it is about 4 to 5 years on the freighter side to command. AC = ?

Freighter command can get very short especially if you're interested in a B747F in Europe. 4-5 would be about right for a B744F command if you make it through the hoops. Pax command would be about 9-11 years. AC could be 25+ years if you want a YVR base command.

Which to choose? Well, I think that is up to your needs and personality. Do you like to live as an expat? Are you looking more for the excitement of living abroad with good pay and many options or would you rather have total control of your schedule and life? I'm with CX and very happy but some find the schedule and the operation very frustrating. If you never plan on going to Hong Kong and living abroad, then go for AC. But remember, a non-resident gets to pay NO CDN TAX and HK tax can be as low as 8-9% for a family making less than 1 million HKD.:ok:

Not sure you will be flying the A32X series if you join Air Canada.
But sure you will be flying the heavy metals if you join the Cathay Pacific. ;)

...And you'll be forking over a lot more of your discretionary income if ever you have to pay for your own [tiny] apartment in overcrowded HKG. Population density: 15,000 people per square mile.

I've heard CX pays for the mortgage on your home in HKG (but not elsewhere?? sub question...WHY not?) and the amount they provide for a HKG accommodation will get a nice place (from what I personally have viewed there).

Thank-you for the comments so-far. Very productive answers. Anyone (everyone!) else, please?

Yes, the housing allowance has dropped over the past year but you can still get a nice place to live at little or NO cost to yourself. You can rent a nice place free of charge or buy a unit costing you only 10 to 30 cents on the dollar depending on price. Only S/O's for the first two years have it tough if they want or need a larger unit.;)

They only pay housing allowance in HK because everyone is an expat living in a very high cost place for accomodation.

I would apply to both carriers and see if I can pass the interview process first and then I'll make a decision. You get more informations from the interviewers that way.

MONTREAL - Air Canada plans to upgrade its fleet with as many as 36 Boeing 777 and 60 Boeing 787 Dreamliner aircraft, the company's parent firm, ACE Aviation Holdings Inc., said Monday.

The airline said it has placed firm orders for 18 Boeing 777s, with rights to the remainder. The 777s are slated to go into service in 2006.

Air Canada has also placed firm orders for 14 Boeing 787s, with rights and options for the remainder. The first 787 is due to arrive in 2010.

Boeing said the price of the firm orders is about $6 billion US.

"Our decision to modernize our fleet with the 777 and 787 Dreamliner will move Air Canada into a clear leadership position among North American international carriers with the world's two newest and most efficient twin-engine, long-haul airplanes," said Robert Milton, chair, president and CEO of ACE.

The deal is expected to be finalized by the middle of 2005.

Milton said the new 787s will save Air Canada about 30 per cent on fuel consumption and maintenance costs compared to the 767s they will replace.

Restricted voting shares of ACE were off 50 cents at $35.30 on the TSX on Monday.

Capt Over,



I don't know much about CX but I have been with AC for about 10 Years know....


As far as the pension is concerned ,if you were to retire today from AC after a 25-30 year career you would get approximately 110,000-125,000 Dollars CAD per year as our pension is defined benefits wich means you are not subject to market fluctuations.

In terms of flyi the heavy metal: Some of the entry level positions at AC are A340 or B767 Relief F/o if thats what you want and I believe that CX starts you out the same (if in Pax fleet).So if heavy metal is what you want you can get it right away.


Upgrade time: We have just gone through 9/11, SARS, a terrible merger and a bankrupcy so the times right now are worst case scenario and anyone who has been in aviation long enough knows that time to upgrade can change 180 degrees in a flash....good or bad even at CX or EK and AC.
Right know the most junior A320 Capt is in YYZ and has 10 years seniority making 175,000 CAD per year.

A junior widebody F/o on the 767 will require about 6 -7 years seniority in YYz.

Toronto is the most junior base as all the growth is there and Vancouver and Montreal the most senior so upgrade times longer there.

Most junior Captain position is Embraer 195 and junior Captain on it in Montreal has 7 years seniority and will make, 130 000 Cad per year.

I am 767 f/o (by choice) and I clear after all deductions around 6000 Cad/months in my pocket for about 75 hours/month wich equates to 12 days(approx)

These are upgrade times after the blackest period in our history.But with 60 Embraers 195 and 36 B777 and B787 and 800 retirements in the next 5 years you can bet that upgrade time will be very short.Just before 9/11 upgrade to 320 Capt was 5 years in YYZ (longer in YUL/YVR).


The great thing about AC is that if you want Longhaul widebody you can have it ,but if you get tired of it (and most do fairly quickly due to the weird hours) you can fly equipment and routes that get you home every night and with reasonable hours...

If you want to travel or commute you get an unlimited amount of passes on AC and Z fare travel on other airlines for you and your spouse and you just pay for the taxes.

The flying is just as varied as Cathay as we have routes and layovers around the world.

Meaw

Meaw,

The Captain wages you quoted look about 20% higher than those shown on

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/content/view/96/11/

For eg.:

You say A320 Capt 10 years = $175k
Web site says (173*70hours*12) = $145k.

Do you know if that scale is totally out to lunch, or out of date?

The rates on that website are a little simplistic compared to reality.

On top of the hourly pay numbers we have a day and night pay where night flying gives you an extra 15 or so Dollars per hour.

There is navaid pay also for when you fly outside North America wich ads to your monthly total.

Finally the salary you talk about is at 70 hours per month and that will almost never happen.You need to figure around 77 hours to 80 hours as that is what it usually comes out to at the end of the month with block growth.

When I said that the most junior captain has 10 years in the company and a 320 captain makes 175k/year I was not clear in that I didn't figure the 10 year scale to the dollar but was giving the average number from the guys that I was flying with recently and they are a little more senior than 10 years for the most part.

I looked up the pay scale on our union website and a 10 year captain ,if you want to use as a yardstick, would make between 167-170k/yr depending on the flying done .

A 6th year F/O on the A320 will make beetween 91000-96000 Dollars/year.

As for the 767 and EMJ195 salaries I doublechecked and they are correct.

Hope this helps

Indeed not a very high pay salaries.

But what makes a pilot to fly the A320 and the A340?

Thanks

320 Ca at AC hourly wage around C$160/h with a garantee around 70 h/month. Max at about 80-82 h/mo. With a C$ at about US$0.80

But do not forget in Canada land EH! Income tax for salary above C$75K/yrs is at around 50% rate.

From a parallel universe
 

The Air Canada retiree my have $100k doled his way annually at the end of his career but the expat retiree personally owns the capital which generates that $100k. These situations are in two completely different universes of family prosperity.

Personally, I netted $237,000 last year in the expat pilot game. You can see how net worth stacks up pretty quick under those terms as compared to $135k less 50% for Martin-and-tennis-partners, GST and mortgage payments.

That is so true.;)

Ah, yes, the good old "Defined Benefits" scheme, whereby the company hods your money and spends it at some point to keep the company afloat. You then get a nice letter saying "Sorry, shag, no pension for you" Check with some of the ex-US Airways guys joining cx in droves right now.....................
Thanks very much but (By the way how many times HAS Air Canada been in administration/Chapter 11 whatever they call it ?), no, At least the cx provvy fund is paid to a seperate company into an account in the indivduals name....................so, when you leave you get a nice big cheque to spend on whichever ex wife you choose !!!

Sorry CX vs AC..................no contest..................CX everytime

You'd be much further ahead at CX, I've worked for both and the disposable income is vastly different. Not to mention the equipment and route structure among other things. Quite simply, CX is a far better company and is more of a finely tuned instrument, AC is an old out of tune bar piano. I would have been on a 320 for years and years as an F/O flying domestic at less than 100k. YVR base would be even longer.

I'd be surprised if the defined benefit pension is around in another ten years at AC. As mentioned, with hundreds of retirements at higher levels, doubtful this will be fully funded in the future. If it is, it will benefit those in retirement, not someone with 20 years left. The wages will be kept low to offset the costs.

My comparison would be for a younger person with mainline, not the freighter option, but even so, I think CX would offer a more interesting career. AC will have better days ahead and it is still a great option, but that's my perspective.

I think you have to ask yourself what is more important to you in terms of career and lifestyle......While we can debate endlessly about CX and AC in terms of who's got better routes and wich one will give you more money in your bank account, the one thing that you cannot dispute is that if you join AC within a few years you will have a paycheck that in Canada gives you an excellent lifestyle, a nice home, nice car, golf, sky whatever you want. Yes we pay lots of taxes, yes you may get lots of domestic flying for the first few years but despite all the pay cuts when you look a few years down the line you will be having a great life in Canada, with enough disposable income to live in great neigbourhoods and travel lots.

Do you know if you will like the expat life in 5,10,15 years?
Do you know if you will like living in Canada?That one I bet you know.

What will your wife think of it also is important because even if you have your million in the bank you wont be happy if the family isn't happy.

I have worked overseas in the Middle east and asia and let me tell you that when the s...it hits the fan you will be happy to be in a country like Canada.
And while some may prefer CX or EK or whatever and that is fine because they all have good points and they do make lot's of guys very happy.........you are not making a mistake with AC .

Just think about it: Wouldn't you rather be at AC wondering about CX than overseas wishing you could be home?
Lifestyle is what it's about in the end, not if you are on a 777 or a 320.

And Tamalai, AC has been through bankrupcy protection once and emerged much more powerful and the better for it. But what makes you think your airline is imune? On good spell of bird flu and what makes you think you will not suffer? We are all in the same boat in the end....

And your comment on the pension....the law here is different than the USA and the vast majority of your pension is not in the company's hands and is protected.

Well, this has been quite the reasonably balanced debate. Lots of interesting points.

Unfortunately, this isn't really a decision most of us will ever have to make; CX is hiring, AC is not. And yes, lots of rumours about AC hiring by year end.... but that's what I thought about 5 years ago too, right before the layoffs!

meaw,

You make a good argument for those that are unknowing but your facts are terribly wrong!

the one thing that you cannot dispute is that if you join AC within a few years you will have a paycheck that in Canada gives you an excellent lifestyle, a nice home, nice car, golf, sky whatever you want.

Yes I can! I will have an excellent lifestyle, a nicer home, a nicer car, more golf and more of what I want then if I were at AC.

Yes we pay lots of taxes

I pay lots of taxes too if I take a Canadian base.

Do you know if you will like the expat life in 5,10,15 years?

Did you know many have never lived in Hong Kong? As a freighter F/O you can start with a NA base then transfer after 3 years to a NA pax base and thus never be an Expat.

And while some may prefer CX or EK

Two completely different airlines with completely different lifestyles for an employee’s family.

Just think about it: Wouldn't you rather be at AC wondering about CX than overseas wishing you could be home?

What about living in YVR with 18 days off a month flying a 747-400 to Asia? Not with AC. Only catch is you start on freighters based in NA for 3 years and during this time you will be home about 12-14 days per month.

CX has never furloughed pilots although granted 49 were fired in one gulp but only because they challenged the company. If you’re smart and most are at CX, you will never have to ever worry about your job!
:)

When I first saw this thread I thought it was a joke. On reading the posts I find that a few are taking it seriously. My tuppence worth is, I'd rather work for CX who have never, in approaching 60 years of operations, made an operating loss. They have declared a couple of petty cash losses but still operated at a profit. Air Canada well you see that's why I thought it was a joke.Seriously though it is a lifestyle thing and those who cannot cope with the hectic pace of life, and the pollution are probably better off in Canada. I remember a joke - man in doctors surgery, doctor says if you give up beer, smoking, gambling and sex you will live a lot longer....or it will at least seem that way. Yay Canada.

But it's so much more than just one carrier over another!

With AC you get the standard starting position in Toronto or Montreal. Year’s later maybe a cruiser position in Vancouver. You will move or commute to one of these cities for the rest of your life. That’s it!

With CX you have options...many of them. You can join as an S/O and live in HK for 5-7 years then take a base. With bases in Europe, Australia and North America you decide where you go and where you live. If you have the option of a foreign work permit you can live in Europe working from one of several major cities for several years. Then if you want, move back to NA with one of several bases here.

You can join as a direct F/O on the freighter and remain in NA for the rest of your life or if you change your mind, move to any of the other bases around the world.

But, if all you want to do is live in Toronto for the rest of your life, go with AC. So the bottom line is do you want options and excitement in your life or the hum drum life of AC in YYZ?
:)

I have always been led to believe that an employment ban exists between KA and CX.

Does anybody know if this is set in concrete. Has it been tested. Does it apply to pax and cargo fleets.

Interesting debate this - and it just happens to be a relevant and real issue for several of us in UK having to consider with offers from CX and other mainline carriers on the table. And I thought getting through the selection process(es) would be the difficult bit!

Cpt dude, when you say you will never have to worry about your job at CX that leads me to believe that either you are not really in aviation or if you are you havent been there very long.....everybody in aviation is at risk of loosing their jobs as anybody out there knows it only takes a war or attacks somewhere or SARS or high fuel prices or whatever but anyway that is not really the point.

Job security at CX......It seems to me it might be good except:
A- You open your mouth (i.e see the 49ers)

B-You fail a SIM

c- You fail to show up to your so-called NA bases because you commute to it ( as most of the CX guys I know do)

So if you are the type to worry about having a bad day in the sim or full loads on your commute or saying the wrong thing to the wrong person....job security might elude you.
We might have laid off in the past but everybody is back ,but most importantly we HAVE STRONG LABOUR LAWS and we HAVE FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION you get dude ....FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION and that is worth lots of cash and nice cars etc...

As far as living the ho-hum life in Toronto.........if that is where you are from how is that bad.....No excitement you say.....
Go skiing, kayaking, parachute jumping ,chase girls, go off-roading, hunting,fishing, skating,play hockey, running,hicking,shopping or travel the world on your passes.
I just dont get why you think Canada is not exciting and HK or CX or whatever you are refering to is.

This thread is reaching the end of it's life. Anybody that even needs to think about which is better should probably avoid Cathay for the simple reason that you probably won't make it through the process.

Meaw,

Well let's just see here...you said;

"Job security at CX......It seems to me it might be good except:
A- You open your mouth (i.e see the 49ers)

B-You fail a SIM

c- You fail to show up to your so-called NA bases because you commute to it ( as most of the CX guys I know do)"

A. Why do you need to open your mouth? Your hired to fly aren't you? So you don't need to be the big shot.

B. You can have a bad day in a sim and get a low score on one or two items but if you do fail a sim you still won't get fired. Fail two and maybe you will but if you fail two sims maybe you should be fired.

C. Well, guys always push it to the limit don't they? CX requires you to be on location 12 hours before a flight. They don't check up on you to see if you are on location, they just want you to be there for the flight. But some guys don't like to go so early so they cut it closer and closer til one day they miss the flight. What else should CX do?

You guys in strong unions relax and take the support of your union. You know you won't get fired and so you don't need to be sharp or proffesional. But your right, if your a slacker...you better go to AC because CX will fire you.:)

CPDude....

I think a few people have mentioned, a company that can unilateraly fire you, by paying you 90 days pay, fire you for tossing some peanuts at a senior executive, demote you on the seniority list (doesn't happen in a union shop in NA) for disciplinary reasons....that unilateraly change the COS for rostering etc etc etc...

Cathay perfected the A, B, C, D pay scales....

And of course you forget to mention the formula pay system that allows a pilot to trade seniority and pay to come up with their preferences as to base, equipment and monthly flying...

You can fly the CRJ, the EMB 175 or 190, the A319/320/321, the B767-200ER/-300ER, the A340-300, -500, the A330, and soon the B777-300ER, the B777-200LR, and the 787-8, -9.....

One can chose to fly domestic, transborder, international, long haul and ultra long haul (soon)....

Cathay pilots have quit to join Air Canada and Air Canada pilots (a couple that I know of) have quit to join Cathay.

In all reality it should be three sims you fail before you face the man with the axe. No doubt CX is a patriarchal company, just play the game fair and you will never have a problem. Bend the rules to suit yourself and ... well your call. Anyway you look at it Hong Kong is a more exciting place to live than Canada. Even on Letterman the other night a guest asked if all Canadians go to the same school of advanced boring, the reply was of course not there's one in every Territory.

Cpt dude,


If you are a slacker or unprofessional go to AC.......

i THINK YOU ARE PRBABLY BITTER because you did not make it in to AC. We have one of the best safety records in the world and one of the best on time performance.......not typycal of unprofessional pilots. As far as being slackers.......you are an i....t.Most guys flying here spent years and years flying in the bush,loading and unloading palnes doing the refueling, flying their asses off at charter airlines or in the military.The average pilots had to work like a dog for at least 10-15 years to get in.

No one here is an ab-initio BS who was in the right seat of an Airbus with 200 hours so you have no clue what you are saying.

As far as having a strong union, in aviation you need one.....I will refer you to the 49 rs thread , or the QR threads or the EK treads or MAS or whatever one you want to pick.A strong union is a must but that in no way means we are not reasonable or slackers we just work our buts off and sacrificed big to get here and we deserve RESPECT.

As far as Canada being boring guys you do not know what you are talking about.I am still waiting to hear from you what it is that WE do not have here that you do.Believe me saying we are boring is prejudicial. Why dont you come for a weekend in Montreal ,we ll go out on the town and I bet you will be commuting from Canada.

Oh and before I forget Dude......when you say we are only paid to fly and keep our mouths shut.....I see communism is really doing wonders on you.

Extract rom "The Enlarged Devil's Dictionary" by Ambrose Bierce:

Mankind : An animal so numerous as to inhabit the whole habitable world..................................and Canada !!!

Hey meaw,

i THINK YOU ARE PRBABLY BITTER because you did not make it in to AC. We have one of the best safety records in the world and one of the best on time performance.......not typycal of unprofessional pilots. As far as being slackers.......you are an i....t.Most guys flying here spent years and years flying in the bush,loading and unloading palnes doing the refueling, flying their asses off at charter airlines or in the military.The average pilots had to work like a dog for at least 10-15 years to get in.

I guess AC pilots are not known for their spelling, regardless, we have a similar background among our pilot group. Who said I wasn't with AC previously? I note that your airline performance is in the top 50...nice!

No one here is an ab-initio BS who was in the right seat of an Airbus with 200 hours so you have no clue what you are saying.

Actually, you’re wrong on that account. AC hired many from Seneca College in the late 70's and early 80's all with only 200 hours. Most are still in AC.

As far as having a strong union, in aviation you need one.....I will refer you to the 49 rs thread , or the QR threads or the EK treads or MAS or whatever one you want to pick.A strong union is a must but that in no way means we are not reasonable or slackers we just work our buts off and sacrificed big to get here and we deserve RESPECT.

Sure, look what the strong unions did in the USA. During the profitable years they strong-armed the airlines to pay a ridiculous salary and benefits which directly affected the ability of the airlines to survive a recession. Also, didn't anyone ever tell you buddy that you earn respect not demand it. Yup, your a bush pilot.

As far as Canada being boring guys you do not know what you are talking about.I am still waiting to hear from you what it is that WE do not have here that you do.Believe me saying we are boring is prejudicial. Why dont you come for a weekend in Montreal ,we ll go out on the town and I bet you will be commuting from Canada.

So what makes you think that I and many others don't already live here? Or maybe we could if we chose to. Oh ya, it's what we do not have that makes it great...HIGH TAXES!

Oh and before I forget Dude......when you say we are only paid to fly and keep our mouths shut.....I see communism is really doing wonders on you.

Sure does comrade!:ok:

Hey meaw,

Are you really with AC?:8

...so punk...are ya?:E

It would appear that the question (as initially posed here by Captain Over) has been answered by the very same (Capt Over) as he is now asking how to import his Dog/cat or perhaps other culinary delight into Hong Kong............................

So its Cathay 1 Air Canada 0........................

end of thread, eh ???

Yeah Dude I am and have been for quite a few years punk

And you are you really with CX......I doubt you're eevn an airline pilot

Just havin fun with ya...ohh, that's mum callin me for lunch...see ya!:D

Just announced today by management,

AC hiring 600 pilots this year......looks like a good time to come and move up the ladder quite fast I would say.

To Tamalai (mentioned personally for the laughter generated!) := and everyone else that contributed to my original quest - thank-you very much for your time, and valuable input (minus the usual de-railings and mud-slingers...grrr!). Your information is appreciated.

I'd love it if I get on with CX. As a back-up, AC does come close, but CX does have the edge overall, in my opinion. Your posts here (and elsewhere) have confirmed my decision.

As a famous (infamous?!) TV detective once said... "Oh, just one more question..." What is the deal about having CX buy a house in HKG? What is the monthly mortgage limit? Is there a max term? Thoughts - buy in HKG, stay there a few years, then bid for a N.Am base (and sell the house, of course!).

Thanks once again to everyone that made all the great positive postings here.
:ok:

What is the deal about having CX buy a house in HKG? What is the monthly mortgage limit? Is there a max term? Thoughts - buy in HKG, stay there a few years, then bid for a N.Am base (and sell the house, of course!).

You have just broken the code!

It is not inconceivable that if you invest in Hong Kong real estate (with Cathay's money) for 8 to 10 years, you can return to north America with 1 million in equity.

There are lots of different options, but if you were to arrive at Cathay with this as your "10 year plan", I would wager that you would come very close.

Good luck with your future. Setting career goals for yourself is very important and it sounds like you are well on your way.