HKAOA & ASL
 

Why don't the AOA allow the remaining ASL crew (including the 30 ex-CX FE's) to join?

I hear there is at least 150 that would be supporting the CC vote.

Lets not forget the AOA agreed to CX recruiting these people in the first place - why not get them onside now?


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- in motion

Endo,
One ASL member has applied to the AOA for membership, but had it rejected as ASL is not on the charter of companies that the AOA is allowed to accept members from. This charter is apparently laid down by the Labour Dept. Anyway he has now taken the matter to the Labour Dept. in the hope that they will amend the AOA charter or eligible companies to include ASL.
As for ASL supporting CC, all they would be able to do is provide moral support, as their contract is a little different to CX, and any industrial action or perceived industrial action could have their contract terminated asp without recourse.
You are right about the number who would like to join the AOA, perhaps if someone were to propose accepting ASL as members at a GM or EGM, and another to second the motion, it may get the ball rolling.
Merry Xmas

Endo
"Why don't the AOA allow the remaining ASL crew (including the 30 ex-CX FE's) to join?"

On the first of Jan 2000, all ASL PILOTS had to make a choice. That choice was to either stay doing what they were doing or join the CX seniority list. Either option had advantages and disadvantages and they all made their choice.

Life is full of choices - some you make good decisions, some bad. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. I would not support any ASL person who wanted to change back unless they come to the CX seniority list (And I would not support that - we all made our choice), and at the bottom of where the list at the time. Why, because IF they are in ASL and the HKAOA, there is a conflict of interest, and the AOA would not support or be able to support any views of a sub-company of CX that the the HKAOA does not support and has spent so much time and effort trying to get rid of after screwing it up in the first place.

I would support the FE's coming across and we need to give them the same opportunity as the pilots were given.

"I hear there is at least 150 that would be supporting the CC vote."

There was exactly 50% of those eligible to transfer across that did - 98, and 98 stayed behing (there were a couple of extra guys that were not eligible). And it was an equal split FO's and Capt.

"Lets not forget the AOA agreed to CX recruiting these people in the first place...?"

Initially yes, now not quite. June 1999, last years little event, was where the HKAOA made one bit of significant ground in that CX agreed to not hire any more pilots into ASL and thence ASL will eventually cease to exist. And maybe this is why the ASL pilots now want to come across. They were given the good and bad of both options last year before they had to make the choice.

Iago,

As a result of the last two weeks and the agreement that was reached, the freighter pilots probably got the best deal - they got a much better form of Rostering Pactices, that is they actually got ONE.

Remember that HKAOA means the you the membership.

I know alot of the above is not in the spirit of Christmas and all, but the HKAOA has fought very hard to get where it has with this issue and needs to avoid deviding its membership as CX has been doing for so many years.

Have a good Christmas & New Year everyone.

Darling,
You would not support ASL joining the AOA, because it would be a conflict of interests? I suppose A scale, B scale, umpteen different pay scales, Air Hong Kong, and Veta Freighters is not a conflict of interests. I also believe that Dragonair can join the AOA, is that a conflict of interests? Allow the opposition to be members, but not the guys who are working for the same company, oh and by the way, Veta is not CX, it is a shelf company just like ASL. This is not about CX membership, it is about common interests.
It is closed minds such as yours that will keep the pilot work force divided and uncohesive, the managment must love you, line-up outside the DFO's office for your award of the triple oak leaf cluster with hershey bar.
It is difficult making forward progress while you are looking backwards.

Hey, Iago, you had your choice a year ago. If you passed up on it - tough luck. That was YOUR choice and unfortunately that is the way it will stay.

Well, Christmas is a time for CHILDREN after all!!

Veta is indeed a 'shell' company just the same as USAB is, the same as ASL is. All three; ASL, VETA, & USAB are 100% owned subsidiary companies of Cathay Pacific Ltd.

We should allow any Hong Kong employed crew member to join the HKAOA. - After all, the larger the membership, the better for all concerned.

HKAOA would not have a conflict of interest with CX, ASL, VETA or USAB. All employ aircrew who need a voice to represent their views.

By the way - it's Christmas day in India - Merry Christmas to all. :-)


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Unfortunately, Iago, you have the wrong end of the stick. Dragonair can only join DPA (Dragonair Pilot's Association). Both DPA and HKAOA are members of HKALPA which is a blanket organisation that is affiliated to IFALPA.
Separate entities entirely.

Choice of employer was given to all ASL pilots less than a year ago and now, having made your choice, you want to change the rules.

HKAOA never supported the formation of ASL and were against it always. It is now a dying company and will cease to exist soon.

It would be hard to claim that you were anything but aware of the situation when joining ASL. HKAOA couldn't and wouldn't stop you from joining a legally formed company. Now, we don't have to accept you into the fold.

Sleep bed your made you've now it. (Old Christmas puzzle!)

Compo

Compliant One - thank you.

Iago - I hope you have become a little educated.

"I suppose A scale, B scale, umpteen different pay scales, Air Hong Kong, and Veta Freighters is not a conflict of interests."

Completely agree with you. And that is why we must work together to get rid of them all and back, I say again - BACK, to ONE pay scale, ONE set of rostering practices and ONE set of Conditions of Service. 1 Jan 2000 was the first day of the demise of ASL and that's the way it should stay.


"Dragonair can join the AOA, is that a conflict of interests?"

Complinant One answered this for me, but it is interesting to note that the HKAOA finance HKALPA.

"This is not about CX membership, it is about common interests."

Sounds like you want to keep it that way.

"...the managment must love you..."

Oh believe you me, if only you knew. The only reason I line up outside any management office is for tea and sticky buns with my hat - and without the tea and sticky buns!

"It is difficult making forward progress while you are looking backwards."

Mirror required.

Thank you all concerned for a wonderful Christmas day

Compliant One, at last years dog and pony show, I thought Ted Plevin said in his presentation that the AOA took no stance regarding ASL when it was formed. Am I confused or did TP mis-speak? Could have been playing to his audience, I suppose.

The point Endo makes is a valid one and is aimed at promoting unity amongst the "Cathay aircrew", in its widest sense. There is no suggestion of a second window of opportunity for the ASL guys to join the CX list.

It has always been the case that an element of the good work that the AOA does in representing the Cathay aircrew spills over onto ASL, (FTLs, CoS etc) Whether you intended it or not the AOA is now representing the ASL guys to a much greater extent. No better example can be the forthcoming pay negotations.

Officially, the company's position on Freighter pay is that it should reflect market forces and to that end the company monitors the pay offered by our Freight competitors. Equally, Integration was in the company's eyes a no-cost option. In reality however, CXF competes in the market place for pilots against all airlines, not just Freight carriers. CXF are experiencing very real problems, particularly in the US, in both recruiting and retaining pilots. Further in the UK, Dragonair are looking to recruit Classic qualified guys for their Classic Freighters and are offering about 10% over Cathay Freight pay. The company are also alive to the very real prospect that come the second half of 2001 a mass exodus shall occur off the freighters to the pax fleet, as the Veta (ASL signees) hit the required seniority number.

Unoffically, the company is starting to acknowledge that pressures exist to move the Freighter pay upwards. They are also saying that they want one single pay scale for all Freighter pilots, ASl and Veta. In about 2 weeks the negotiations start, and where they lead is anyone's guess, however, consider these questions;

1. Given the extant relationship between the company and the AOA should the AOA even sit down with the company at all?

2. Should the AOA negotiate for the Freighter pay to come in line with B Scales?

3. Assuming that you answered Yes to questions 1 and 2 above, if the company agreed to B scales but stipulated that in return they wanted to be able to roster the Veta Freight guys (not ASL) on the pax fleet; what would your reaction be?

I readily accept that the above is fanciful, but as we know, once negotaitions start ( assumming that they do?) it is very difficult to predict where they may lead.

Here's hoping for a harmonious new year

Liam G.

What you say is interesting and valid, Mr. G. Another apect of this integration and the possibilty of equal pay between CXF and pax, whether it is B-scales or an eventually unified scale, is what happens about the guys who have obtained upgrades on the basis of CXF being a "junior fleet"? All of a sudden they are simply guys who took commands/JFO upgrades out of seniority.

A harmonius New Year to us all.

This is about ASL joining the AOA, not pay and conditions.

Here are some points to consider:

How many more ASL will come if the offer to joing the AOA, goes with the negotiated offer between the company and the AOA to join at the bottom of the seniority list?

The extra 1% would be nice in the AOA coffers and get everybody on side but how many in avaiation would love to have the benefit of hindsight?

Busdrvr,

I think there are a number of issues which are linked, but nonetheless separate, and at times these separate issues become blurred.

On 1 Jan 2000, all the pilots under the age of 55 employed by ASL were given the opportunity to join Veta. They joined at the bottom of the CX seniority list. As employees of Veta, they met the AOA's requirements to apply for membership and the majority of guys who applied were accepted.

A lot has happened in the past 12 months. All new joiners, of which there have been many, joined Veta directly on base. About 12 or so mainline Fo's are now CN's with CXF/Air HK, and as the number of ASL FO's decline more mainline Fo's will receive command upgrades on the Freighter. In short, the majority of the Freighter pilots are employed by Veta.

Endo raised the point about the AOA opening its membership to the ASl employees. A number of replies came back which appeared to interpret this as a second window of opportunity. This is not so. A second window of opportunity would have to involve the agreement of the company, and given that the vast majority of guys who remained in ASl did so because they wish to remain flying to age 60, I do not think the company or AOA want to go down that route at the moment.

My post, which you have blandly dismissed, as another pay and conditions post, dealt with an issue that I imagine many of you are unaware of. ASL employees shall receive a renumeration package negotiated by the AOA. Further, the company appears to be losing interest in differentiating between ASL/Veta (except on pensions!) and I can see the company in the very the near future putting a very substantial pay increase on the table, but in return they will want the ability to roster Freighter guys on pax aircraft. Moreover, should the AOA pre-empt this and make the offer first,- debate is needed I think.

We then go full circle. If ASl guys are going to have the AOA negotiating on their behalf,(in terms of pay, CoS, FTLs) should the AOA not open its membership to them and take the 1% and if necessary enforce CC upon them? It has been quoted before, but worth repeating;
"We all may have arrived in different ships: but we are all in the same boat now."

ASL pilots receive a package negotiated by the AOA only because there are CXF pilots working for VETA/USAB and THEY have AOA representation. The frtr FOs that chose not to join the CX list for upgrade reasons and the captains over 55 will just stay where the are until nobody cares or they just go away. Anything the AOA negotiates has to be accepted by the membership. I think the seven or eight hundred FOs and SOs on the pax side will still have a problem sitting beside a Captain who is hundreds of numbers and years junior to him on the seniority list. A vote on this issue would not carry, simple numbers. It would be a waste of everyone's time to even start talking about us all becoming one big f#*@ed up family.

No one seems to mind sitting next to me so far and at the end of the day all they have to do is say no!

10sne1,

You say, "a vote on this issue would not carry, simple numbers".

I do not understand what issue you are refering to? This thread is about AOA membership for ASL employees and/or an amendment to our CoS to allow Veta pilots to operate any CX aircraft so long as they are paid pax salaries (A or B Scale). It is not about a further and total integration of the remaining ASL employees.

LG; I was commenting on your remarks about frtr pilots being rostered to operate pax ac. This would be out of seniority. If I was asked to vote on whether to allow CX to integrate the pax and frtr crew such that I would be required to operate with a captain 3 or 4 years junior to me (I'm an FO) I would vote NO. Most of the people I joined with would vote the same. I would also vote no on any issue that gave a pay rise or any other improvements to ASL/CXF COS, again if I was asked to vote. If frtr pilots want to fly pax ac for pax salary and COS then there is plenty of room at the bottom of the list. I would think that if we are to integrate the crews then the only way I, and many of my colleagues, would be able to accept such a plan is if all pilots operate in the seat that their seniority number will hold. Unfortunately that puts qualified captians back to SO and I can't see the company doing that. Basically there are a lot of pilots in this company that were significantly disadvantaged by this whole cock up and we aren't willing to give away any more of what little career we have left. The way I understood it there is already an ASL Pilot's Association and they are part of HKALPA, as are the Dragon Air pilots, isn't that enough representation for you?

I am really impressed at the number of you guys who are so against the concept of ASL, but are working so vociferously to ensure it's continued existence and longevity. The last ASL member will retire [ at age 60 ] sometime in 2030, "Ouch", that is a long time to live with a thorn in your side. However I don't think the company is planning for that to be the case. For the last year they have been quietly de-identifying the ASL crews, CX uniforms, moving their mailboxes into the common mail room. If you are concerned about the company using ASL in some form of out of seniority manner, what better way to prevent it than allow ASL to join the AOA so they have some industrial protection against exploitation, which will harm your careers.
As has alraedy been stated ASL will benefit from the AOA salary negotiations, why not let them contribute to that effort by becoming members.
Concern has been expressed about freighter captains operating pax aircraft out of seniority. I believe the CX F/O's who have taken early commands on the freighters, are not permitted to bid back to the pax fleet until their seniority permits. I think this is an excellent idea that the AOA should enforce rigidly, in order to protect guys careers.
There has been a bit of vitriolic rhetoric about a second window of opportunity for ASL to join Veta, so what? Should the AOA, ASL, and the company be able to find common ground for this to happen, would'nt this finally get rid of this pain in the side called ASL, rather than waiting thirty years for it to happen. The ASL joiners would be bottom of the seniority list, and remain on freighters until they were senior enough to bid across to the pax fleet. Surely this is in everyones interest. Come on guys, don't lose sight of what you really want to achieve.
Apologies for stuffing up that bit about Dragonair and the AOA. Just shows that if ASL were allowed to join the AOA, we would have better informed aircrew.

10sne1,

You say,"if we are to integrate the crews"; you appear to be behind the times. The AOA overwhelmingly voted to integrated the crews a year ago and it is happening, no "if" about it.

I am employed by Veta, and accepted my number at the bottom of the list on 1st Jan 2000. Most of the pilots on the Freighter are employed by Veta; some are senior to the majority of AOA members I would expect. I am sure that they would join with me and be astounded that you would vote against any action that may lead to a pay rise for them, solely because you harbour some ill-informed prejudices against Freighter pilots; Thanks mate, bodes well for CX pilot unity!

However, I suspect that your somewhat jaundiced view may not be shared by your colleagues. Consider this:

I estimate about 30% of all basings occur on the Freighter. So there's a good chance that if you or your colleagues want to go on base someday, you will be offered a Freighter basing. Will you want freighter pay or B Scale when you go on base? If you think you'll be happy with Freighter pay then keep your head in the sand.

As I posted previously, the freighter pay is receiving upward pressure from the market place. My personal view, fanciful perhaps, is that should the Company be offered the chance to cross roster Veta pilots from the Freighter to the pax aircraft, they may be prepared to abolish the Freighter pay scales now. I would have thought anything that gets rid of a pay scale lower than yours, that you may one day fall to, is worth some form of sacrifice. That sacrifice would be, on occasion, having to operate with one of the 40 or so CNs who signed across from ASL. In reality it would only apply to the 744 and would be nothing new as it has been happening all year on the 400F and on the 400 pax when some of the former ASL CNs trained on the 400.

Finally, the last sentence of your post doesn't apply to me as I am Veta and AOA membership is available to me. However, I would have thought a unified union membership of all those who operate CX aircraft is preferable to a factionalised one.
Liam G.