'I estimate about 30% of all basings occur on the Freighter'

Hmmmmm, so that's where mine went!

Iago, your comment '....allow ASL to join the AOA so they have some industrial protection against exploitation , WHICH WILL HARM YOUR (OUR) CAREERS....!!!' You are joking aren't you mate...??? ASL has ALREADY harmed my career, to a degree that is unprecedented in the industry. It can't do any more harm to me than it already has (5 year delay to my command, for which I will NEVER forgive the management for). The only way to assure the eventual demise of this ill-considered and chaotic scheme is to ensure that we don't make it easy for the company to deal with the situation. I feel it was an error on the part of the AOA to have offered ANY integration, and I certainly will NEVER accept flying with an ASL Captain (...let's see, they got their 4 stripes after base training....where CX Captains only get their after the whole Command course is complete.....I guess the ASL captains are just that much better...!!). The simple fact of the matter is that there is an ENORMOUS amount of hostility and resentment built up within the mainline pilots towards the ASL pilots, and I can assure you that the feelings will NEVER FADE AWAY. I certainly have not the slightest intention of having anything to do with those of you who chose not to join the AOA last year. As for the ASL captains out of seniority.....do you really expect to be accepted as an 'equal' by any of us who joined this airline with the understanding that we waited our turn......as is the case in REAL airlines the world over....? I am sick of the whole subject, and the continuing rationalisations of those who wish to undermine the very career that I was promised by a management who is truly morally bankrupt.

Resistance, you truly are a masochist. If you care to take your blinkers off for a few minutes and take a look at the big picture, you will see that the proposal I put forward in my previous posting is the best way to get rid of ASL for good, and to allow the AOA the control they need to prevent abuses of the system in the future. However if you wish to have ASL around for the next thirty years as a constant reminder that you did'nt have the balls to stand up to managment in the first place, so be it.

"There is a tremendous amount of resentment against the ASL pilots". I thought that it was the concept of ASL that everyone was against, not the individuals. However if you want to get down and dirty, I can go there too. Lets look at the facts and not just the emotion. Not one ASL member crossed a picket line [ I know, I checked before applying ], not one direct entry ASL captain took anybody's command. Outside employment was only offered when those suitably qualified mainline officers chose not to accept the command positions offered [ don't blame them at all, I would have done the same thing in their position ]. However the reality is, that had those suitably qualified officers accepted those command slots, there would have been no direct entry comands, and every other F/O and S/O would not have had their upgrades delayed by several years. Now you may not find that very palatable, but it is the truth. You can't change history, it's set in stone, but you can influence the future, and that was what my previous proposal was all about.

Iago....perhaps you would care to read my post a bit more carefully before replying. If you care to peruse what I wrote, you will see that nowhere did I state that an ASL pilot was a 'scab' (ie: someone who crossed a picket line). All I was saying is that there are some VERY strong feelings and emotions. They are not going to go away, no matter how much you wish they would. I don't per-se have a problem with those ASL pilots who joined the AOA and the CX seniority list. The exception to that statement is those pilots who are currently flying as captains, who are JUNIOR to FO's int this company. That is not considered acceptable in ANY proper seniority airline. I will be damned if I will just roll over and allow this to be a fait-accomplie, and to accept them as legitimate. To make it easy on the company, and easy on the individuals concerned only ENCOURAGES this company and others to look for other ways of undermining our careers. I can guarantee you that ASL (and those pilots still employed by her) will not last 5 more years, more less 30....! Regardless of your ideas about 'sensible' approaches to the problem, there is not a single one of us who joined the 'old' CX that will EVER accept what was done, and it's results. I can certainly assure you that none of us will EVER accept flying with a captain who is wearing those stripes out of seniority, and who is illegitimate in the eyes of 1200 CX pilots. Whether or not you like that reality is really of no consequence to me. Your ideas will lead to more of the same.....not less. In closing, I state for the record once again......ASL was dying, and the AOA should have not made ANY offer to integrate. They should have told the company, "you made it, you live with it".....and it would have surely died. Now we have the most screwed up airline in the history of this industry, with policies, conditions and ineficiencies that will be used as a case study of 'failure' at business schools for years to come. Incidentally, I suggest you be very careful stating that the ASL captains 'didn't take anyone's command'. It is a statement that is offensive in the extreme to many long-serving FO's in this company.

ASL employees who did not sign across to Mainline and AOA are the loosers and will see it when they get screwed by Management... just look at the new freighter reserve as a retaliation for Contract Compliance (by the guys who were smart enough to sign across). Is management thanking you by assigning reserve coverage to all because some (AOA members did not answer their phones).

Don't forget that one of the bosses at ASL classic fleet stole a propeller from the Aviation club, what other than G-Days will he steal from you???

There seems to be a distinct lack of appreciation of the situation under which ASL was formed amongst many of the correspondents in this forum.

The formation of ASL was solely at the expense of the existing pilots on the, then, integrated seniority list. There was no difference between the freighter and the pax fleets. If you flew the Classic then you flew pax and Freighters without any discimination.

Cathay decided to expand the freighter side after AHK proved how profitable freight was ex HKG and CX had to purchase the company to stop the competition.

As a result of the splitting-off and downgrading of the freighter jobs, senior F/Os had to wait considerably longer for their command courses because the Command slots had effectively been taken away and formed into a separate company - ASL. The jobs were already there - they were not created by the formation of ASL.

If ASL had not been formed then ALL the commands in the freighter companies (as well as all the bases)would still be in mainline seniority.

I bear no malice against those individuals who decided to come to CXF/ASL and take an offered position. A job is a job. I feel pretty sure that all of them were aware of the industrial situation at the time. The only thing that bothers me is the attempt (after so few years) to bypass their fellow pilots to advance their own position. It was made perfectly clear to you all at the time by the company that you would only ever fly boxes.

The possibility of flying PAX when you have the seniority is a major concession by the pilots of "mainline" but this doesn't seem to be enough.

Whatever you do, remember that the company loves a divided workforce. We are divided by CoS and by seniority lists at the moment. The AOA managed to get you a big win with the rostering practices (ie you now have some AND they are the same as pax/mainline).

Time to be grateful and not to rock the boat, one would think. "If we keep quiet, we may get some more wins on the coat tails of the mainline guys. We certainly don't want to p**s them off."

Compo

Like it or not all current and future freighter basings,commands and f/o positions rightfully belong to those of us employed by cx prior to the formation of ASL. Until this situation is rectified I can't see how, even with the best intentions, that we can enjoy a harmonious working relationship.

[This message has been edited by Healey (edited 29 December 2000).]

Compliant One. What you say is generally the history as told to me when I joined ASL. Clearly, we were all mindful of stealing guys jobs, so I am troubled by the phrase, "If ASL had not been formed then all the Freighter Companies would still be mainline seniority" Firstly, I think any employee of ASL who was previously employed by Air Hong Kong would take exception to what you say. Secondly, mangement was unswerving in their view that had the cost base not been reduced by inter alia the formation of ASL, Cathay would have sub-contacted the Freighters to another company and the crew positions would have been lost in any event. Now I don't expect for one second you believe that, but do you have evidence any contrary?

Compliant One, what is, "the attempt to by-pass their fellow pilots."?

Absolut Kuk; You seem to be suggesting that the Chief pilot is changing our G days into Reserve Days. The Chief pilot is, I believe, a Cathay employee, and has very little to do with rostering. What has changed is that our O days are being replaced with Reserve. Presently, it's not too arduous as we can do reserve from the end of the phone anywhere in the world and only for a set time period and not the whole day as under the O day system. Further, it avoids the nasty situation of having your card marked by management for not answering your phone on an O day and having your house burnt down by the AOA if you do.

Resistance, you say," I can certainly assure you that none of us will EVER accept flying with a Captain who is wearing those stripes out of seniority, and who is illegimate in the eyes of 1200 Cx pilots." Your assurance is a bit hollow when I exclude from the "none";

1. Those FOs who volunteered for a CXF temp base in LON, and
2. All those FOs and SOs who regularly fly with ASL and ex-ASL CNs on the 400F, and
3. The dozen on so FOs who received command upgrade training on the Freighter from ASL and ex-ASL trainers, and
4. The long queue of FOs outside DR's door lodging applications for a Freighter Command on base, and,
5. All the guys and gals who sat next to ex-ASL CNs who received conversion training on the 400 pax aircraft.

Healey, you can think what you like mate, but both the Company and the AOA say my FO position on base is rightfully mine and I have a CX seniority number and a CoS to prove it.

To us all, this may be a jolly fine waste of a few moments before crew-in, however on the Cargo Flight line in HKG is a Southern Air 747F on a long Wet Lease to fly Cathay Scheduled Freight services. That lease represents 8 base Commands and 8 JFO upgrades and 8 ex-CX FEs that were not re-employed. What did we say about it, what pressure did we put upon the company to make it a dry lease?- nothing!

We obviously disagree on the meaning of the word 'rightfully'!

This whole thread seems to have gotten out of hand!

The issue was quite simple.............The pilots in ASL had the chance to join CX in December of 1999 on VETA Cos.

Some took the opportunity and some did not. The decision was taken based on information available at that time. - nothing has changed since then.

This thread raised the issue of whether the AOA should allow the remaning ASL crew, membership of the AOA.

These guys are not looking for a way to join CX - they could have done that a year ago!What they want - and need, is the voice of the AOA.

Nigel has just said in the latest BTL that he is not happy with many guys in CX piggy-backing on the AOA when they do not contribute to the funds of the association. For example the few that will be receiving by-pass pay because of the extended Captains.

Every time the AOA discuss anything with the company regarding the freighter Cos or pay or leave or anything, the ASL guys will benefit. CX have an open policy on CRM - how can you have a crew on differing conditions?

All that endo was trying to say, I think, is that if the AOA are directly ot indirectly helping the ASL crew, they should be asked to contribute to the AOA funds.

This of course would mean membership of the HKAOA by ASL crew - something that I would not be against.

Lets get real and get a membership pack out to every ASL crew member tomorrow. Let's not forget hat most of the FE's in ASL were once employed here in CX. They were dumped on big-time when the classic was put to bed. Now is the time to make it up to these ex-members.

safe flying.

Coanda. - Effective aerodynamics.

Healey,

Rightful; held by virtue of a legal or just claim.

I have got a piece of paper with my name on the top and and the Veta CoS below, and I have done the CX FO course. I took my number at the bottom of the CX seniority list as sanctioned by some 95% of the AOA membership. I say that's a legal and just claim: what say you?

Liam G.

I would be interested to know exactly what it is I should be gratefull for.

The offer of employment with CX was made following a vote by the same 1200 aircrew who apparently hate the very sight of me and who now expect me to comply with my contract(which I do)so that an attempt can be made to improve conditions for everyone except myself!

I am expected to keep quite and be satisfied with any morcel of improvemnt that may be achieved by hanging onto the coat tails of the aircrew body and should the AOA dare to negotiate me a higher pay scale then my fellow AOA members will happily vote against it.

What a crock of S@"T!

As you have been so generous in making concessions to allow me to join your company and get a command when I have the appropriate seniority, I must remember to add you to next year's Christmas card list.

ASL would have survived as long as the CX cargo fleet, with or without your approval, and most of us were very happy with the way things were. We did not ask to join CX, you asked us. If the possibility of flying with us was more than you could bear then you should have voted NO!

While on the subject of freighter crewing, the integration seems to be going rather well with mixed flight decks on almost every flight. It is quite amazing how CX crew always stand on the moral high ground until it suits their personal circumstances to look the other way.

United we fall!

[This message has been edited by SteamDriven (edited 29 December 2000).]

SD; You're right, we should have voted NO.

Happy New Year gents.

Your definition of 'rightfully' is absolutely correct. I suspect however that you would emphasize 'legal' whereas I would emphasize 'just' !

And in a court of law Healey you wood lose.

Gents, we seem to have lost sight of the forest because of the trees. Nobody in ASL is trying to usurp the system. The proposals put forward so far are, that if ASL is to benefit from the efforts of the AOA, then they[ ASL ] would like to contribute. But if you would prevent me from contributing, I can only accept your generosity with heartfelt thanks. For the AOA, ASL, and the company to investigate intergrating the remainder of ASL, including F/E's, thereby consigning ASL to history. It is interesting that one intergration could be so readily accepted, but a second intergration, further down the seniority list is so disdainful. I personally feel that seniority is the worst impedement to our profession that has ever been devised. It prevents the free flow of flight crew between jobs to access the best opportunities. Thereby allowing some free ranging exploitation by managment, as you have well experienced. Do you know of any other profession where, when you change jobs you have to start off everytime as an apprentice.

ASL will eventually disappear, the company said so, and we all know how well they they keep their word, don't we?

Wood? Try would.

intergrate: try integrate
impedement: try impediment

:) :) :)

Happy New Year to all

Iago, you are talking to yourself (3 posts in a row)

Compo,

A well written and balanced post by you. Permit me to respond to some of your points:

>>I bear no malice against those individuals who decided to come to CXF/ASL and take an offered position. A job is a job. I feel pretty sure that all of them were aware of the industrial situation at the time.<<

I suspect some of the later joiners may have become aware however the first ones thru’ the door had absolutely no idea of the hornets nest they were entering. Had I known I would NOT have bothered. Perhaps the AOA should have conducted a more vigorous awareness campaign worldwide at the time? I certainly went to great lengths to dissuade others from taking the Swire shilling, on this contract, as a result of the less than warm reception we received.

>> The only thing that bothers me is the attempt (after so few years) to bypass their fellow pilots to advance their own position. It was made perfectly clear to you all at the time by the company that you would only ever fly boxes. <<

The vast majority of ASL captains I have spoken to ONLY want to move boxes- be assured on that one! The thought of having to deal with the niff-naff and trivia of carrying punters again leaves me cold. You are welcome to it and you DESERVE the extra money!

>>The possibility of flying PAX when you have the seniority is a major concession by the pilots of "mainline" but this doesn't seem to be enough. <<

Please see previous response.

>>Whatever you do, remember that the company loves a divided workforce. We are divided by CoS and by seniority lists at the moment. The AOA managed to get you a big win with the rostering practices (ie you now have some AND they are the same as pax/mainline). <<

We are grateful to the AOA for that although, in truth, the AOA were actually fighting the corner of the VETA freighter guys. Incidentally had the AOA negotiated a deal that ‘ring-fenced’ the older captains on freighters until they retired then I believe ASL would now be extinct. I certainly would have signed across AND paid my dues to the AOA. I believe the vast majority of my ‘old-fart’ colleagues would have done like-wise.

>>Time to be grateful and not to rock the boat, one would think. "If we keep quiet, we may get some more wins on the coat tails of the mainline guys. We certainly don't want to p**s them off." <<

I concur entirely. As in all organizations, and groups of people, there are always those that shout loudest. Trouble is that it is their views that get imprinted on viewers and listeners minds. I would prefer to know what the silent majority are actually thinking.

Tailpiece-

Now that rostering would appear to be on the way to being fixed I would like to suggest that fair play be administered, in the new year, towards those who had their remuneration tampered with during the 'downturn'. At the time it may have seemed a realistic thing to do but now even those of us skulking at the bottom of the food chain think you were stuffed. An unsolicited generous gesture from management in this regard would go a long way to getting the key players back on side.

Getting the key players back onside will filter down as they pull the stops out and encourage their subordinates. The ultimate knock-on effect will, in my opinion, be the airline once again having a 'can-do' attitude. It goes without saying that, within a very short period of time, the consequent rapid growth period with an ‘on-side’ team would result in CX actually scratching for F/O's to promote to command.
I hope I am not being too naïve as I feel there is still an opportunity, with good will on all sides, to really put this airline back on the map.
I wish you all that you would wish yourselves for 2001
Blue skies
SM