E.G.M.
 

Please let me know the outcome of the E.G.M.

Check your email from the AOA.

Why are you not on the AOA members' E mail address list out of interest.
All items approved, meeting adjourned awaiting further developments {the ball is in the Company's court to provide satisfactory progress by the 3rd Dec on 2 issues-Contract rostering definitions to eliminate current abuse and the NZ contract thing).
Bowing to obvious overwhelming pressure (which will continue on the other issues), the Company has agreed to now pay Extendee Captains A Scale pay after all. Suggestion from the floor that the 4 individuals (who DID NOT seek AOA advice prior to accepting their very selfish, greedy and immoral contracts), be invited to contribute the difference to the Sunnyside Club (overwhelming agreement from the floor, but not appropriate as a motion.)

Are these 4 selfish people AOA members? If so should they be expelled? If not, at the very least, there should be 4 letters of apology written to the AOA commitee and its members.
Either way it will be very difficult to keep my stress level on the safe side if I show up to work and am supposed to operate with one of these greedy, pathetic boys who call themselves professionals!!!!!!!!

It is of course a given that the four persons who were prepared to carry on past normal retirement age for b scale ,should give the 30% increase in pay brought about by pressure from the AOA, to the charity of their choice.
Their lack of moral fibre is a disgrace to the profession. It shows little sensitivity to the aircrew whose support they relied on during last years fiasco. Although the AOA obviously had to give an assurance to management that the individuals in question would not be vilified, it obviously makes the whole AOA committee and membership sick that these sad,selfish characters should benefit in any way.
I for one would be unable to sit next to any of these individuals in any cockpit. I trust we all feel the same way.

A great result for fairness and a slap in the face for all those involved in under the table dealings (including our Managers).
Well done everyone. Don't get your knickers in a twist and be stressed out by these selfish 'brethren'.
They're not even members of our AOA and yet we got them a deal that stands up. How dumb does THAT make them look.

It seems we have two similar threads running, so here is a copy of my post on the other thread:

Well done to all, especially the AOA and its members for bringing this about. I must say, however, that I would have been even more delighted had the outcome been that w.e.f. all future extendees would do so on A scales thereby excluding the existing handful whose actions I can never condone. Let them lie in the bed they have made for themselves! Similarly, the company's actions are reprehensible. Let's not be be overcome with the euphoria of the moment - all they have done is give back something that should never have been taken away in the first place! Whatever credibility NR may have built up has effectively been destroyed by the extendee issue and his farcical comments vis-a-vis the 1994 rostering practices. I would urge you all to maintain your resolve in order to bring about a speedy and successful resolution to the ongoing rostering practices negotiations.

Neautral Stability,

Before you start slapping each other on the back in a fit of self congratulatory smugness, wake up to yourself.

You are saying "well done " to the A.O.A. for getting a PAY RISE for the extendees!??

If the A.O.A. doesn't start representing the interests of the majority of it's membership very swiftly, I suspect that a lot of us will vote with our feet and give ourselves a 1% pay rise by quitting the Association.

There are many B-scale people out here who resent your attitude and think that the A.O.A. has got it's priorities severly out of wack. If you are to convince the membership that "A.O.A" does not stand for "A-scalers Only Association" - then you better start listening to the membership.
Get a significant pay increase for B-scalers... NOW!

Rgds
very upset,
Beacon Outbound.


[This message has been edited by Beacon Outbound (edited 25 November 2000).]

Beacon Outbound,

Whilst I agree that B scalers need a pay rise, do not forget that a large majority of the A scalers are having to deal with a 30% pay cut, whilst the B scalers achieved a small pay rise at the same time. Do not think that the AOA is only for that group, they are fighting as best they know how. But in order to achieve anything that need every member on side 100%.
What really annoys me is that these original extendees [pathetic individuals that they are] who undermined the entire crew body, now reap the rewards of all the hard work from the AOA and the rest of all of us, I'm afraid that it really sticks in my throat, and is very hard to swallow! We may have achieved a victory on that point, but is it going to fix the rosters ? Improve your working conditions, make your life better in any way. I don't think so.
Mike Hardy a very good DFO once stated that he was worried about a WOE campaign for the following reason. He would always be certain about the start date, but would never be certain when and if it would ever end. Personally I think that the time for action is getting closer every day. I don't trust this management in any shape or form, they keep us talking to delay taking any action. It has worked for years so why not continue with a tried and trusted formula.
How can they improve the rosters? Even if they really wanted to, which they don't! There are insufficient crews to achieve the task, there are aircraft arriving throughout next year. The only way to make this management and board sit up and take notice is to inflict a deep and very painful wound.
What comes after Christmas , Chinese New Year? every flight is full so imagine the chaos if we were to institute a rolling sick out during that period.
Do not lose hope, do not become fragmented, things will improve but you will have to fight for it first. ARE YOU COMMITTED ENOUGH ? DO YOU HAVE THE COURAGE?

Well said Conan. To the slightly unstable Beacon Outbound. As much as I normally dislike entering into a slanging match with someone whom I assume to be a fellow AOA member, here goes. If you feel that B-scalers are not represented by the AOA, then you must have previously dug a very big hole for your head and proceeded to stick it in there as far as possible. The B-scale representation on the committee is considerable. You will also find that the majority of AOA membership now consists mainly of B-scalers and has done so for some time now. The work, which the AOA president and his committee do behind the scenes, is enormous. If you were to take yourself down to the office and read the correspondence file occasionally, you would realize that a great deal of effort is expended on rebutting this management's persistent efforts to reduce not just the A-scaler overall remuneration package, but that of all its members. To name but a few, these matters range from hotel issues, through management's interpretation of commander's discretion, to rostering issues, housing, medical… and so on and so on… Although I agree with one point you made, that B-scale pay is an issue and deserves our attention, there is only so much that can be done at any one time. Many see the priority as being that of roster stability and achievable overtime thresholds. Successful resolution of this issue will bring benefits to all our members, irrespective of whether they are A-scale or B-scale.

The point I was trying to make, vis-à-vis the extendees, was that the U turn by management on this issue was not done as a self-initiated gesture of goodwill towards men, it was done as a result of quiet diplomacy behind the scenes; that work was done by men who spend numerous hours of their own time working for you and me. As a result, what has been achieved is that any extendee will do so on at least his present conditions of service. I regret that this will now include the present bunch of extendees, some of whom are not AOA members, but you can't have everything in life.

Finally, if you feel that you can achieve your industrial goals on your own, without the help of the AOA, then you are as naive as your post portrays you to be. If, as you say, you would achieve a 1% pay-rise by relinquishing your AOA membership, you would undoubtedly find this to be your last. It may be, to quote you, that there are many people out there who resent my attitude, but you may wish to consider the possibility that it is your attitude which is out of step with the majority.

Beacon Outbound

I am an A scaler and a staunch AOA supporter. I was therefore wondering what exactly have the A scalers got from the AOA that the B scalers didn't. I have had my pay frozen since 1994 and taken a huge pay cut recently for 3 years. If I recall you have had a few small pay rises. I don't want to get into an A scale ... B scale thing as it has all been said before but since the introduction of B scales my conditions get worse every year. When the company introduces C scale oneday and your B scale is frozen for ever I hope you will also be understanding as you expect us to be.

------------------
" If you don't stand for something, you'll fall for everything "

Panza,

"When C scales are introduced..." I work for Veta and receive a salary less than B scales. I suppose it would be wrong to call that salary "C scales", because it was,in part, the brainchild of the AOA and it only concerns ASLscum . Let's call it "Freighter Pay" and we can all be happy... G&T's all round.

I'll be getting my coat then...

Liam G.

Neutral Stability,

If your intention was to persuade me back "onside", then calling me unstable is unlikely to achieve your aim. If your intention was to persuade me that the A.O.A is attempting to look after the best interests of all it's members, then you failed again.

I am a member of the A.O.A, I have supported the association completely. But I do not believe that the association is above critisism as you appear to believe it is.

CoS 94 ,B-scales, ASL, 20% pay cuts for members ?? If the association keeps on being this successful at protecting it's members interests we will soon be paying the company for the priveledge of coming to work.

Lets agree to differ on this one Neutral. You think everything is going swimmingly well and I am obviously unhinged.

rgds
Beacon Outbound.

Just look and see how many of our esteemed senior brethren (on Eur Bases) have left the AOA recently.
Planning an extension on any scale boys???

[This message has been edited by jagman (edited 27 November 2000).]

Dear Beacon Outbound,

I fear that you have misinterpreted exactly what the recent decision by the company amounts to in the big picture.

The company has agreed to stop the abuse of our existing contracts on the matter of extendees. Your contract (it may be worth you getting it out and reading it) contains specific conditions for the extending of officers beyond normal retirement age. Whilst these conditions may be out-dated and insufficient, it is important that the company realises that it cannot simply ignore or change our contract unilaterally. This it now accepts. Step 1 accomplished.

The next step is to gain an acceptable and legally binding work practices agreement so that all officers can benefit from a stable lifestyle or be properly remunerated for the disruption.

Ensuring a proper and industry driven salary structure for all members comes next.

May I suggest that you take an active interest in the AOA (assuming that you aren't already giving up some of your time) before you attack your association. When was the last time that you went into the office?

The committee has my full support.

Compliant One

Compliant One, I fear that you have misinterpreted the basic tenet of my grumble - that certain groups DO feel alienated and that no-one is listening. Not the committee nor members like yourself who patronize me and ask me to read my contract.

I have read my contract. It says lots of things, one of which is that I do not get a pension, I do not get a Provident Fund. I get 15.5% of salary in lieu-which is TAXED.

Perhaps you have the luxury of a provident fund which you can afford to retire on?

Perhaps you have the luxury of not having to work under the inequity of B-scales.

Perhaps you signed an agreement last year which cut your income by 20-30%. In doing so you sent a clear message to management that it is perfectly acceptable to continue to treat all staff with the same manipulative contempt. Even the B-scale staff who supported you. They won t hesitate to do the same thing to me next time around. Well done!

So, don t try to tell me the A.O.A is above criticism, it insults me and demeans yourself.

Hey B.O.,

As has already been suggested, why don't you go in to the H.K.A.O.A. office and voice your displeasure to the committee.

You are correct in that "our organisation" is not above criticism. One point to note is that "our organisation" is the membership of the H.K.A.O.A and not just the committee.

I think you will serve your cause better by doing this.

Boy oh boy, where to begin. I would like to remind you oh beacon outbound, that no one put a gun to your head when you signed your contract with the company. You knew exactly what you were coming to, and what you were to be paid. Now suddenly you don't like it!! Well we came here a long time ago expecting our conditions to remain much the same or perhaps improve. Since 1994 the A scalers have gone backwards, whilst the B scale salary has improved. At least you haven't had things taken away from you that were contractually given to you, upon arriving here to take up employment.Whilst I agree that B scales are bad we need to get the contract issues sorted out first, then work on improving every ones lot in life.
To say that the A scalers signed a contract which has given the company the right to continue with contract abuse is so far off the mark as to be ridiculous. Remember we were all made to sign with the threat of dismissal hanging over our heads, whilst you guys got a pay rise I took a 15% hit.Do I take that out on the B scalers NO!, it isn't their fault, it's the companies . Why try to put a wedge between the two groups, we are all fighting for the same thing, A decent contract that is not revoked by the company every 5 minutes a liveable roster, and a decent wage. I have to say that you sound so bitter about the union that you may well do us all a favour and resign, see if you can do better on your own. Just remember that you accepted the terms and conditions of employment when you arrived here just as I did. I would like nothing better than to return to 1994 conditions of service, the ones that I accepted when I arrived, which have been eroded ever since.

CX Driver - Really? You think that would work?

Conan, perhaps you re right, I am being ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by Beacon Outbound (edited 29 November 2000).]

I've given up!

Just post, on this thread, Beacon old buddy, exactly the last time that you went into the AOA offices. Simple question - simple answer, please.

As far as I am aware, the committee actively welcomes comment - they put out a survey after all. I've sent mine in. Question 2, tell us when yours was submitted.

This is truly meant in a spirit of friendliness and to attempt to get you heard. You obviously have some strong opinions and it would be great to know that your energies are being put into something constructive. Don't let the company divide and conquer.

Compo.

Compo- me old mate,

Admittedly the last time I ventured down into the bowels of Kowloon WAS a long time ago, but everyone was too busy to talk , so I have felt reluctant to trudge down there again.

Yes I have replied, my questionaire was returned within a day of picking it up from the mail box. If you are a committee member and have access to these forms then you will be able to recognise who I am as I said similar things there too.

Also made similar noises at Pendulum nights , and meetings.

[This message has been edited by Beacon Outbound (edited 30 November 2000).]

Some support for Beaconoutbound against the very self centered reply from conan.

You seem to forget conan that you and your illustious compatriots allowed B scale! Yes we signed to join on B scale salaries but did not expect the benefits to be so different or to be unilaterally changed between interview, signing to join and actual joining date. We also expected, like you, that our conditions would improve especially as B scale was supposed to be a temporary measure. However I will not go into all the boring details for you.

Yes we have had some very small pay rises in the last few years but we were a long way behind to start with. Do you honestly think you would have had a better deal in 1999 if the B scale had not rallied around and surprised the company as well as the AOA. You my friend would probably have rushed in and signed the contract a long time before you did if the support had not been there.

We should be working together and stop having special interest groups and the "well I was all right jack" until the company reduced my salary type of attitude. There should be ONE pay scale and ONE benefits package after all we do the same job so we should have the same reward.

Just to throw another little bomb into the system. I personally think the company should immediately allow all those B scale officers who wish to retire at 60, only way to get a decent retirement fund, but keep the A scale at 55. We have an unequal system so why not go the whole hog.
Nil iligitemi carborundum!!
(Yes I know it will probably not be the perfect latin spelling or translation but it is the thought that counts)

------------------
Keep smiling!!!!

Easy to say you have been walking the walk as well as talking the talk BO. This is an anonymous forum after all. What you write disturbs me.

The AOA are all that we have got! I tend to agree with Conan's comments about your position. I'm sorry that you aren't on the once frozen, now decreasing A-scales and that you are on the increasing B-scales that you signed up for. COS94 is a mistake in our past, we should never forget it, but we must move on. Our aim is to claw back all we can and to do this we need solidarity not division.

We need to tackle each issue in turn as they require so much of the small resource we have (HKAOA). The majority want the lifestyle issue of rostering sorted out first; it's a problem that has been here the longest! Next is proper remuneration for BOTH A & B scales and equal benefits for all. It's not going to happen overnight but it will happen if we stick together.

You are more than entitled to your views, no matter how you derive them, but the vast majority of CX pilots would disagree with your position. This is a fact as shown by recent AOA meetings. If you want to table a motion to test your views you can do so without any difficulty. I recommend you volunteer your time to the AOA if things aren't progressing fast enough for you.

No offence meant, we are pilots together in this.

[This message has been edited by Thrust (edited 01 December 2000).]

Well said Thrust, I totally agree,
Stick together, NOW is the time boys (and girls), there is light at the end of the tunnel. SL

Thrust,Conan,Neutral Stability -what you write disturbs ME.

Yes, the A.O.A is all we have.

Yes, we SHOULD all be pulling in the same direction.

But, your arrogance really grips me.

The work force is in its present disarray because at some stage you all agreed to CoS 94, B-scales, ASL, and pay cuts last year. It may be an unpalatable concept for you to hear, but it is the truth. You did this out of self interest. That's OK , as long as you do not ignore my interests.

So forgive me if I have accquired the impression that perhaps you don 't represent me. That you represent a deeply entrenched mind set of self interest where A-scale remunerations are protected at all costs (not very well) and that B-scale issues come a distant second or third , if that.

Last year the vast majority of us were prepared to support you . And what happened? You accepted a large pay cut. Would it be naive of me to think that a bunch of people who wouldn't defend their own conditions would actively seek to improve mine?

You continue to demand our support yet refuse to address, or even recognise , our legitimate concerns.

Yes , we all want a speedy and successful resolution to the ongoing roster practices negotiations, but I am very worried that other concerns are being ignored, lost or not even listened to.

I am sorry if my postings appear blunt and I know that they may well not represent the view of the majority of members. But it is a legitimate view point. It is not listened to, but it has some justification.

I think thats all I wish to say on this, I apologise again if getting this off my chest has offended anyone (especially those who ARE working hard on my behalf). If it has persuaded anyone to view a different side of the coin then perhaps it was worth it.

rgds
B.O.

To electricjetjockey
My reply was never intended to be self centered.If it was miss construed as such, I apologise.
I was merely trying to point out that we were forced to sign cosap99 or be fired, on the other hand B scalers signed a contract of employment without threat or coercion when they joined. Since then their pay miserable as it is has increased, whilst the A scales have reduced significantly. In answer to your question I didn't sign until the deadline, nor did I ever have any intention of doing so early. I was very pleased with the support shown by the B scalers, in fact we got a great deal more from you guys than a lot of the A scale pilots. In case you are interested, we did try to stop B scales from being introduced, but the company told us that it was their right to offer lower salaries for new joiners. What would you have us do Go out for someone who hasn't even joined the company. It's not that easy, as you have seen since you have been here.Perhaps if no-one had joined at the lower salary, things would be different today, and you may all be on A scales, However plenty of people accepted the positions which made it hard for the union to do anything about it.
I'm not trying to force a rift between the 2 groups, we need each other right now, to be unified, for the common good. But I am trying to give you a little history. There is nothing that I would like more than to see the abolishment of B scales. But whilst your salary is going up mine is coming down to meet it.
Yes I accepted the new terms, but I assure you it was only done so under threat, and I'm far from happy about it.
To consider that the AOA is not looking after your interests is false, we would all like a pay rise, but I would like a roster that I can live with even more, and some stability in my life. Then we can ALL work on improving every ones lot. But divided we will achieve nothing, We have to work together, and I'm sorry that you feel that the AOA is taking a one sided approach to things

Not arrogance BO but experience. Sorry if I offend your thin skin I did try to reason.

You are very selective in your reasoning and display just what the CX managers must love to see. We might as well pull together or go our own way. Your seem to have made your choice.

I would like to know your previous union background and what your union achieved for you. Is this your first taste? With your outlook you may end up with what you deserve.(read that how you like it)

See you at the AOA meeting on the 5th of Dec. Hope to see you speak your mind in front of the members so we can see who thinks what. I hope my comments disturb you some more!

Give it up guys and lets all go back to our home countries. The management of CX thinks you will grow to have slanty eyes. Where will you be in 10 years when all your "leaders" are back home living on their great bonuses!!!

I am not a member of the organization but have been following this since May of last
year. Please explain to me why you the pilots did not stand as one force against the
"forced to sign COS?" If there had been the solidarity that you are hoping for now,
then, and the majority of pilots said NO to the COS,and go ahead and fire the lot of us last year you would have seen the management screaming "wait wait we have the money!" As they chased their pay checks down the halls. You forget that you are their pay checks. If
you are not flying those planes they have no salaries either and if the vast majority,
and most especially the training captains, had said "see ya" management would have been the ones bending not you.
Then again I do live in a country where we test the metal and know that we would face the loss of a job (perhaps) but history has shown (proven) that when the entire labour force is walking out the door management has to "pay" attention. You allowed yourselves to be threatened and you did not stand up and take the needed action. Now it appears there is much finger pointing as to who and why this COS is being abused by management. Well you sent them a clear and concise message last year. You said you are willing to accept even threats of dismissal to stay at any cost so they are dealing out their any cost to you. And they will read these postings and know that they have got you by your balls and they know you will not stand up and claim the right to act on your (as a group) own behalf. They know the self interest of the few far outweighs the interest of the whole and this is where they have your number. I agree with Beacon Outbound in as much as you accepted these things and you truly do not have the "oh they threatened us" ploy to fall back on because if the group was truly concerned for all; then the group would have let the management
see the back of your stripes walking out in mass on that infamous day in June of last
year. The management chose a strategy to test your metal and they found you are
made of Jell-O. Nothing firm, you will wiggle any way they shake you, and you
mold to their whims easily, and even the strongest amongst you appears to be a
marshmallow, just full of puffed air. Sorry for the beratement but take a real look at
yourselves compared to the rest of the world. You are not willing to do what is required to improve your lives but you have been very willing to allow your lives to be toyed with on a daily basis. As the saying here goes.. "Get a grip".. and you know what you had better be gripping or they will be taking those too, but then one has to wonder if you didn't castrate yourselves and give them up willingly too?
Oh and yes you can take all of this private but then you will not have those of us who
have watched your actions from a totally objective perspective to point out the things
that have been offered in suggestions such as those from "Marco Polo" who was a dedicated customer reading this forum, but perhaps he got frustrated and now flies other
friendlier skies. You (CX) are no longer the only choice in town and you are not as you once were and it will begin to show very soon as the market swings away from the once
and only choice.
You the group of HKAOA should turn the tables to management now. You should say either get with the program on our terms or we QUIT not strike but QUIT because a strike means they will be able to lull you back but if you QUIT then who will fly those big hunks of steel through the skies? And if your HKAOA had been doing their PR correctly the world would know why you walked out and management would not find it an easy chore to find other pilots willing to walk in and take your jobs. Yes they will get the guys who are with low flight time and no real experience, but the seasoned pilots they need to train and operate across the world will not be available.
Again don't listen to me. I come from a country where the workers are willing to say "take this job and shove it" for the cause of the whole, and it has been proven time and time again to either bring the company around or they close down. Either way the arrogant management had to concede or they were the once forced out of their jobs not the workers. But hey don't use our airlines as an example they are making the money and our airlines are moving in to take your market share and with that goes the SLF of CX. I again know how this posting was ignored as you are all a bunch of prima donnas without the balls to stand up for what you want; you don't even have the balls to stand up for what you need. And I am certain the following postings will be from the most intelligent of your force with great comments such as "BLAH BLAH" as they have retorted in the past. Or you will post that I just don't understand. I just say let the facts stand for them selves, and your actions demonstrate the facts very evidently for you, so your protestations are merely your denial of your castrations. "Snip, Snip" another set was given.

[This message has been edited by InUSAandObserving (edited 01 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by InUSAandObserving (edited 01 December 2000).]

I have to say that it's hard to disagree with any of that. When it came to the crunch we folded (I did too). CX was sent a clear and unequivocal message that we CAN be threatened and we will give in to self interest.

Let's see what comes of the AOA meeting on the afternoon of the 5th of Dec. Time to stand and???????

Quite right with alot that you say IN the USA... What you don't understand is our labour protections are nil. It sure makes alot of difference to a fight as to where that fight takes place. Also, talk is one thing (especially from 6000 miles away) and action that will result in change another. Keep observing.

Thrust....
Technically in the USA, when you go on strike, you no longer are employ with that company. Ie: They boot you out of hotels and you cannot use the company ID to jumpseat. No pay, the medical coverage for the family ceased, etc..etc. Everything stops! So what labour protection are you talking about??

I think the basic idea here is, there is NO WAY management can hire 1300 pilots in a month or 2 months or even 6 months! They can't even begin to train pilots when they don't have the C&T Capt.

Get the picture???

For what reasons can I be fired?
Unless you have a written contract with your employer establishing a set number of years for your employment (for example, you are a football coach with a five-year employment contract), you can be fired for a host of traditional and obvious reasons: incompetence, excessive absences, violating certain laws or company rules or sleeping or taking drugs on the job. And you can also be fired or laid off because of company downsizing due to a downturn in revenue, reexamination of the company's mission, a merger with another company or transferring work to a factory in a lower wage area. In most cases, an employer does not need to provide any notice before giving an employee walking papers.
Still, there are limits. Employers do not have the right to discriminate against you illegally or to violate state or federal laws, such as those controlling wages and hours (the law is a fair wage for hours worked). Most state discrimination laws are quite broad. In addition to protecting against the traditional forms of discrimination based on race, color, religion, national origin and age, many also protect against discrimination based on sexual orientation, physical and mental disability, marital status and receiving public funds. -- all boiling down to the fact that an employer must deal with you fairly and honestly.
No law requires an employer to provide severance pay. Nevertheless, many employers offer one or two months' salary to employees who are laid off. A few are more generous to long-term employees, giving perhaps one month's pay for every year an employee worked for the company.

An employer may be legally obligated to give you severance pay if you were promised it, as evidenced by:

a written contract stating that severance will be paid
a promise, in an employee handbook, of severance pay
a long history of the company paying severance to other employees in your position, or an oral promise to pay you severance -- although you may run into difficulties proving the promise existed.

<A HREF="http://www.nolo.com/encyclopedia/articles/emp/LoseLeav.html" TARGET="_blank">http://www.nolo.com/encyclopedia/articles/emp/LoseLeav.html</A>
The above was copied from this site, which has an encyclopedia of US Labor Laws.

You are terribly misinformed about our laws. The area of law that the unions of airlines here fight their cases in the courts is under CONTRACT LAW not LABOR LAW. I am certain Hong Kong has contract laws. But do not think for one minute there is a law here that will keep our jobs for us, and even these laws do not guarantee us continued employment.

If we are not in a union, we walk out without any legal protection when we walk to make our conditions better. Union workers walk out with the only recourse being their contracts and that does not always guarantee them any assurance of continued employment.

Ask some of those air traffic controllers that went on strike a few years ago and the government said bye bye.

I hope this sheds some light to your thoughts thatwe here don't know what it is like to face a company and have no protection. We DO NOT HAVE SUCH PROTECTIONS. You are not being discriminated against, you are not being sexually harassed, you are not being biased becuase of race, creed or sex, so just where do you see that our laws would be more protective of your issue? You are paid handsomely for the work you do. Your hours fit to the standards of the CAA and FAA besides the COS. Your arguments are only to improve your conditions not that you are not getting any, so please stop this waffle about here in the USA we are so protected in our jobs. We can be fired at any time for any reason and 9 times out of 10 that is it there is no where to go. And there is no law that protects us when we decide to take on an employer to improve conditions. unless of course you are working in the coal mines and black lung is a threat or some other seriously hazardous area like nuclear power plant employees but those conditions you do not have. Sorry but you hit a nerve.

You also hit a nerve. What gives you the right to preach to me about my battles with my company. It is a matter of differing legal opinion if a strike is even legally allowed in HK. Is this the case in your shambles of a democracy?

I'm fed up being told how gutless I am by people that know nothing besides what is written by a minority here on PPRUNE. I'm doing my bit and I'll do what the MAJORITY decide with reference to union activity. I wish quite frankly that we had a private forum so I don't have to read the sanctimonious ramblings of a "we know best in the USA" yank.

I love this.

BO&gt; one thing that puzzles me is why you you seem to thing that you've been cheated in some way.
You freely signed the contract knowing its content - since then the only difference I am aware of is that the company has increased your pay.
Whilst I fully accept your right to bargain to improve your pay and conditions, I fail to see that the company is in the wrong by maximising the use of its manpower resources as long as it stays within the legislation. So it's disruptive to your social life, work is inconvenient that way.
Fact is in Hong Kong a lot of people work a six day week with 12 days leave a year even in well qualified white collar jobs and you're doing a lot better than that.
I suspect that a lot of the rancour in CX derives from peoples expectations - i.e. that CX used to be famous in the industry for outstanding pay and conditions for pilots.
Well, things change, yours is not the only industry where pay and benefits have declined.
I suspect that most of CX pilots realise they're still on a pretty good deal and that is why the pilot body doesn't walk out en mass.
It is not the company's job to ensure you have a nice stable roster if they feel that doing so will reduce their ability to make money. Constantly changing rosters is the nature of the beast in civil aviation, and whilst pushing to improve that aspect in your company is fair enough, I suggest you be prepared to live with it.
At the end of the day if the lifestyle of an expat pilot in Hong Kong doesn't live up to your expectations no one is stopping you from heading off to where the grass is greener.
Having said all that I fully appreciate that if the company is making a lot of money the workforce is fully entitled to attempt to get a greater share of it for themselves. Just don't pretend it's some great crusade for justice, you're on a good deal, you want a better one - hai gam doh.

Absolute bollocks!

To in USA and observing, Good comments, and very valid points, however over here we have a problem. A lot of us are employed with a provident fund, which is all we have to live on when we leave. To have done 14-16 years in the provident fund, which is when it is growing at it's maximum rate, and then throw it away is folly in the supreme. The company would like nothing better than to have us resign. Because then the provident fund has to be paid out by law. You cannot then return to the scheme once you are re-employed.
The other problem we have here is that there is a big enough minority that are not interested in striking or resigning which would keep the core of the company going whilst they recruited new pilots. I fully agree with you, that if it weren't for those self serving individuals, any industrial action would very quickly be addressed. That same group would rather bitch and moan about how unfair life is, than do something to make the company sit up and take notice.
As someone else wrote in this forum, A series of rolling sickouts is the way to go. Max disruption and there is no way the company can plan or make alternative arrangements for such an event. If they fire anyone to make an example, then we should all go out. But again all our efforts will be diluted by the same group. It's sad isn't it?

Hey TC, you are obviously completely ignorant to anything in the avaiation industry, so stick to drinking $90 beers at California in your Hugo Boss!!

Interesting thread gents. As an older B scaler I was told informally at my interview that B scales were an interim measure and would'nt last---6 years later? Reality is, what we signed and what we get is nothing to do with contracts its what the company thinks is appropriate. Could it be that after next years A scale cut that the new scale we be a bench mark for all? Pay is certainly an issue but I think first roster and lifestyle. You all know they hate parting with money. Until then lets keep the A vs B on the backburner. The AOA is fighting on all fronts and need our continued support.