Err, "buzzbox" I was not trying to slur anyone making the choice to return to HK it is a personal choice.

No need to get uppity and tell me to 'chill', I was merely pointing out that the article you linked referred to the Counter Terrorism Bill that seeks to stop certain people ENTERING Australia. It is NOT the same as the Biosecurity Determination that restricts people LEAVING Australia. You no doubt meant to refer to that second piece of legislation.

Flying Clog

You might find that kind of work appealing; many others don't. As I said, there are options out there for younger pilots who want to make a career change and many have done exactly that. However, older pilots have a different set of circumstances, especially those who might only be a few years from retirement. It's often a case of 'better the devil you know'. BTW, not everyone approaching 55 has a bucket full of money, especially those based in high tax areas who can't access their retirement savings (eg Australian superannuation) until around 60 years of age.

Flying Clog, I am curious. What are you doing right now?

I totally understand why some would rather relocate to HK than start a new career at home, but how many, if any of the non PR holding Base pilots been given a work visa to enable their transfer to so far?

Flying Clog

You sir, have no idea. What a foolish comment.

Flying Clog

Because seniority is awesome, employees with decades of skill and experience can have the opportunity to move to the bottom of of the next company when ever they wish. Just like the rest of the world… Not!

Seniority protecting the lowest common denominator since - Fate is the Hunter.

This is why, he/she must return. The option of starting again is financially unpalatable.

I literally explained seniority to a guy tonight and he looked at me like why?, with each new company and job he just moved into more and more responsibility and financial benefit.

Sam Ting Wong

Packing my bags, fixing to leave the hong kong cesspit, as it happens :yuk:

Are you leaving the airlines to be a tramper/ HGV driver in the UK?

​​​​​​

Avinthenews

Yes because the next company doesn't already have an F/O patiently waiting for an upgrade with decades of skill and experience. He/she is there willing to forego an upgrade solely to be impressed and enlightened by your abilities.

An approval to leave can be appplied for before travelling to Australia and simply requires some supporting documentation. IMHO slightly safer to have a pre approval than having to convince Border Security on your way out.

https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/l...ustralia#toc-8

Flap10

And said FO with experience you think should be an SO if he moves to another job or should he/she be able to slot in where his/her experience dictates and even god forbid be offered a command course for that experience.

You appear to be saying that without seniority no one ever gets promoted because of external hiring yet the entire world functions without it perfectly well.

Sam Ting Wong

I have been given to understand that he is going for a gig with the Daily Fail. The writing style of invention, distortion and exaggeration is a perfect fit.

Sorry but if you liken this industry to other industries then you obviously don't get it.

Firstly, your financial mate will have literally more than 500 different financial institutions he can apply to across the country, How many reputable airlines can you apply to in OZ, two, maximum three? This is the main difference. The aviation industry has very few employers that employ several thousand employees, where as other industries have thousand of employers that employ very few employees.

Secondly, what metric do you use to gauge ones skill experience? Flying hours? Type rating? Number of sectors flown? We are ALL checked to the same standard and go through the same annual recurrent training, line checks, proficiency checks, etc, etc...Is a 10,000 hour pilot automatically a more skilled pilot than one who has 8,000 hours. Is a long haul pilot worse than a short haul pilot? not necessarily.

Thirdly, you think airlines are out there looking for test pilots? haven't you learnt anything by now? Airlines are run by accountants and without seniority they would be looking for the cheapest pilot that meets the companies minimum requirements, end of story. They could care less if you're Yeager's offspring with 25,000 hours. And as we've already seen so far, there is ALWAYS going to be someone out there that would be willing to do the same job for a lesser salary, who do you think they will hire?

Seniority system may not be perfect, but it is the better option in this industry. It's somewhat ironic that you criticize a system that has afforded you an upgrade whilst keeping your CoS.

Economists talk about the 'mobility of labour' - workers will move to better jobs. With seniority we loose that. Once you reach a point where you can't afford to start again at the bottom, you are stuck where you are, even though each contract is another kick in the nuts, as the new contract is better than what else is on offer when starting at the bottom. CX has decided to use the wuhan virus to force us on to POS18 (a collection of conditions of service OK for someone with no airline experience), where as others I know at airlines which respect their staff have followed the contracts, made surplus staff redundant, reached agreements on reduced pay, but expect to return to previous conditions and reemploy when thing improve.

Due to wuhan there is currently no where better to go to. Due to seniority that will continue to be the case. So my plan is to keep current and watch the market. To avoid seniority I will move sideways to a contract airline job or corporate pilot.

Seniority is a bitch which keeps us down.

Seniority is good for some, bad for others. Rarely First or Second Officers complain, but usually senior Captains do ....

I find it rather pointless to discuss the merits of the system, we will not change it. There will never be true mobility of labour anyway, mainly because of having the right passport is more important than anything else.

Controlled Rest, I would argue that no company on the planet truly "respects" their employees. None.

Every company simply acts in the environment they compete in. They follow local legislation, or they don't if it's worth the penalty. Which is the same, and that for some reason is surprisingly difficult to understand by many in here.

Companies might appear to act more labour-friendly, but in reality this is just the display of the respective strategy. If the management of a company believes it is either beneficial or necessary, because legislation, union laws etc are forcing them to do so, then they will role-play to "respect" their employees, and only then. No company has a soul or a conscience, it is not a living thing. Hence no company has the capacity to "respect" anything, it is an artificial legal entity driven by market forces, shareholder and stake holder demands. That's all there is. Cathay is not an evil employer, that also does not exist. Cathay simply does whatever is possible within the Hong Kong market and legal environment.

I had a thread on seniority lists ( search - seniority lists discussion..... Again! ). I would like to see the industry get rid of them. Last post on there was in Nov 2020. I wonder if the chat landscape has changed for some of the people who were pro seniority lists?

Fletch

I am doing my wagon drivers licence as we speak. It's one of the many options I am looking at, along with flying jobs in Europe that are cropping up. There ARE jobs out there. If nothing else than a stop gap to keep me current until better paying flying jobs come along.

HGV driving would be better in the UK financially (for now), whereas the flying jobs are in Europe, which is a bit of a conundrum.

I've already had an offer, before even finishing my licence, for 50 quid an hour, or 8000 pounds per month for a cushy HGV driving job (that won't last forever, but who knows), which is more than I get as a 747 captain with cx incidentally on a 60% forever pay cut. I would be home every night, living in a 'normal' country, not the ridiculous loony bin that hong kong has become, and wouldn't have to deal with the :mad: and swire psychos we work for.

ANYTHING is better than working for crappy pathetic. Even sitting on one's arse burning into savings, which we're doing anyway working on COS18 to a certain extent.

Evidenced by the number of 747 pilots resigning from CX with no job to go to, or packing in aviation altogether.

Sadly, the keen 777 retreads coming across like rats off a sinking ship aren't helping the cause, but that's their problem and good luck to them.

Best to leave them to stew in their own :mad:, and before long they'll be squealing like stuck pigs when all the rest of us have moved on to better gigs!

I can assure you that the senior Captains at Delta, United, American, Air Canada, KLM, Lufthansa. Air France, Quantas, and so on, whom are sitting on top of the salary scale, avoided layoffs, are exactly on the equipment they bid for and fly exactly the roster they bid for aren't complaining about seniority.

Good point. One is usually con or pro seniority depending on the personal circumstances..

Clog, the moment you find out the real salary as driver of whatever, you will pack your bags. But not to leave. Welcome to Hong Kong! 😂

Whilst Clog is way off the mark on the salaries that HGV drivers can command, and indeed understates the appalling way that they are treated ( not allowed to use washing nor toilet facilities in any number of places, ablutions in layby’s etc etc) here In Blighty, he does have a point. Most 777 drivers wouldn’t have given the average 747 pilot the steam of their proverbial back in the day, let alone acknowledge them, yet are now breaking their necks to get on to what is the Promised fleet.
And his writing style is not rabid enough for the wail.

controlledrest

Why do the best jobs with the least amount of retention (UPS/FEDEX/KLM/Air France/Lufthansa/South West/United) etc all have seniority? and all the :mad: ones like Travel Service, Wizzair don’t?

when CX was good they had a seniority system. Now that CX is just another bottom feeder, go figure!

Without seniority all positions can be replaced by cheaper labour. Particularly in an industry where accountants do not understand and can’t quantify the value experience brings to their bottom line. Just like the clown running CX.

“It must be remembered that there is nothing more difficult to plan, more doubtful of success, nor more dangerous to manage than a new system.”

- Niccolo` Machiavelli.

Cathay has simply moved from a seniority system to a superiority system. The new system is just based on who you know, not what you know, and why not? Nothing new.

SaulGoodman

As an outsider, it's a little flabbergasting that some Cathay pilots would bemoan seniority after years of being protected by it. Have these pilots ever seen the industry and what's out there beyond the status of a legacy carrier? Competing with scycophants-cronyism, nepotism and even corruption rife. Yes, you see a bit of all this in a seniority based airline, though it is just nowhere near as grubby.

So, after forging a career at CX within a seniority based system, now its all gone and the job is pretty average, some now want an open market for flying jobs? Seems a little entitled to me.

smog liver

Without seniority all workers can take their experience and qualifications to another employer who is offering a better package. I have friends in IT, law and accounting. They are frequently poached by other companies offering better deals. With seniority only corporate or contract jobs might offer a better package, other airlines can only offer entry level packages, so year after year we take the pineapple and stay where we are, getting more and more pissed off.

Flying Clog

96 grand a year for a truckie in the U.K.!

hahaha you’re an idiot.

Seniority is objective, meritocracy is subjective.
Meritocracy only benefits workers when they can trust the people making the subjective decisions.
There's a reason why airline managers want a meritocracy.

controlledrest

feel free to apply to Wizzair if you don’t like seniority. Plenty of airlines don’t have it. So everyone wins

Only 20 years ?

Try 30 years.

Indeed. 20 year sprogs !

Dingleberry Handpump

exactly. My mate is a class 1 HGV driver and I can defiantly state he does not earn that sort of wonga. More like £30K

Agreed. Even tanker drivers ( and despite whichever brand of fuel it says on the side of the tin it’s invariably the same forwarder you’re working for ) are making just above that. Factor in the quite appalling way that they are treated here ( compared with their French, German and Polish counterparts ) and it’s a tough gig.
Milk tanker; 0300 starts. Drive to the pick up in dark. Dice with death with tractors capable of 60 mph down country lanes or the Yummy mummies doing the school run In their 4 x 4’s glued to their phones or sat nav and refusing to back up. And time pressure to get the product to the processor before it spoils.
If anyone is making 80k a year doing this please let me know who. I know a few people who’ll have their CV’s in pronto.

Sounds a lot less taxing than aviation these days. Where do I sign?

I can assure you it’s hard graft. And you ain’t getting even close to Pos 20 pay for it.

I thought you’d signed for your £96,000 trucking job already? Hahaha clown

Axe has dropped. UK to close. They got the same letter as NZ and Aus with a little bit of cut and paste. USA next. At least the yanks have jobs to go to.

Time is running out on visas for those already on the chopped bases. Company and immigration dragging their feet.

There are still real savings to be made if they were sack all HK Pilots too ! their payroll expenses would be reduced to near zero, almost immediately !

Shocker!
How many are affected?