Hong Kong dying
 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55555299


Another major step towards the end of Hong Kong. The sooner Beijing is smacked down the better. Hong Kong was one of the great Asian cities, but now every day it gets closer to being just another Chinese :mad:. Anyone who joins CX in the future thinking they will get a career isn't a fit and proper person. Anyone young enough to get out when other jobs come available would be mad not to leave.

Smack down Beijing ? You must be joking . Political power comes from not only the barrel of a gun but also from nuclear weapons and 3 million cyber workers. Better get used to it.

I wouldn’t trust the BBCs objectivity anymore. Their reporting has become less and less neutral over the years.
They start off reporting the facts as they seen them and then tack on the USAs message at the end of the piece.

Exactly. Their biased reporting of the protests last year was a real eye opener...

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/05/w...gtype=Homepage

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/...kers-activists

Ok, discount the BBC (your comments are close to the arse clown Trump's 'fake news' lies). But open your own eyes. The CCP is nothing but evil.

Ask yourself how many countries or cities in Asia are "free" in the Western sense. Japan, Taiwan, maybe Korea, that's it. Then look at all the pre-Covid) fast growing and emerging countries like U.A.E., Singapore, Qatar, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, India, Vietnam etc. None of them has Western human rights standards.

The job market for pilots and the future of Cathay do not depend necessarily on the political freedom of Hong Kong, but on the economy and more specifically on the aviation sector. As sad as the demise of freedom rights in HK is, the city is far from "dying" but changing.

The ascent of China and Asia has just begun, and with a loyal government in charge HK will have the continous support of Beijing. I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China. Whether expats will be or want to be a part of it is a different story.

controlledrest

And the USA has instigated more conflicts since WW2 than any other nation.

Hong Kong is dead. You might as well be in Beijing - no much different in reality terms.

Beijing isn't dead either, quite the opposite actually

Hong Kong is not dying, but changing, thanks to the "students" who messed it up.

It was a very special, unique, place for so many of us. I wish the locals well.

It pains me to say it but the BBC doesn’t have to stray far from their front door to observe a failing society.

Winston Churchill once commented that democracy is the worst form of government except for all the others. You’d have to wonder what Winston would think of today’s democracies with their populist politicians who are swayed by whichever way the 24/7 news media and social media winds are blowing on any given day. Where democratically elected governments tear themselves down over any number of social issues from climate change to historical unions to gay rights to religious freedoms to trade agreements.

Then there’s the complete death of fiscal responsibility where money printing is the only answer to keep the house of cards from completely collapsing. This is countered by an opposition that promises the electorate that they’ll print even more. Short term this satisfies generation now, but long term it’s only increasing the wealth divide as asset prices increase and relatively speaking wages fall when valued against a worthless currency

There’s little doubt Hong Kong is on a slippery slope, but who isn’t?

Klimax

TBH, I'm totally amazed HK has stayed the way it has for as long as it has! Anyone who could believe in the "deal" struck with China at the handover really wasn't looking at China with any realism. It's a bit like striking a "deal" with Russia - or Iran - or..........! Even so-called "allies" can prove fickle - it's called politics and nationalism!

Any major power change anywhere where you radically change the style of Government will lead to changes, particularly grafting a city of 7.4M having enjoyed one political system onto a country of 1443.9M with a totally different system - irrespective of any accords, agreements, deals etc. History is littered with changes that "surprised" the West when things turned out differently when, in fact, the writing was on the wall from before the changes took place. HK is no different. But the West is always surprised!

HK won't die - but it sure will change. I share Sam Ting Wongs' views - based on having 2 step-sons who worked in Beijing for a number of years, married local girls (their Mum did go a bit "ape" when that happened - until she got over herself and actually met the girls!) and one is now back in London but very much still linked to China with work and may head back that way. Will HK be like it was just after the transition? No - and no surprise at all. It will be Chinese and will take its place along with all other Cities in China and China itself will jostle for position in the World Order along with all the rest of us. I'll not see how that pans out over the next 50 years ..... not unless I come back from the other side to haunt the kids that is!

As STW says, "Whether expats will be or want to be a part of [the new HK] is a different story.". My kids got on really well - but they knew to play by the local rules and accepted that they will forever be "outsiders" - but have been equally stunned by the genuine hospitality and friendship they have met in China over the years.

I'm surprised people thought /think that HK was going to go along as a separate entity. The whole point of taking it over was to (eventually ) reintegrate it into China - it's now 23 years since the British left and in many ways the PRC resembles HK rather than the other way round.

When you're an ex-pat you know you're living on borrowed time - eventually the locals will take over - you can either leave of join them............

Bueno Hombre

Quite so. Tell you what, lets slap them down good and hard by not buying ANYTHING Made In China. See how long yiu last.

Well there goes the Apple business..................

Apple is moving some production to vietnam.

Hot 'n' High

Freedom of speech and the freedom to speak, hold free and fair elections, the right of appeal in the legal system. The freedom to do what you want in life - it is being taken away from the Hong Kong people - as Hong Kong is becoming "just another Chinese city". Anyone who choses money over freedom - can go to Hong Kong as an expat - it's much harder for the the local population, in particular those of the younger generation, to just leave their home. It's now irrevocable that the change is no longer just a change as is - but a clear pathway to become just another polluted Chines city. It is really sad.

What country has those freedoms you speak of ?

Hong Kong dying
 

Very sad, Hong Kong was one of my favourite cities,used to stay at the PARK HOTEL in Kowloon.loved taking the ferry accross and visiting the fish restaurant.
However, having been pretty all over mainland .
WHAT DO ONE EXPECT in relation to beautifull HKG
THANKS AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO MODS AND ALL COLLEGUES.

Klimax, trust me - I absolutely 100% agree with you. It really is sad! My only point is that it was inevitable. For even the local HK people, they also ended up "living a dream" under the shadow of the Union Jack - and, when the handover came, the UK thought - yet again - it would be "different" and sold it as such to expats - and to the locals. A total and utter lack of British political honesty - again!

My family left Rhodesia in 1970. We knew how it would end - the 3 local lads working for us knew how it would end - and they implored us to stay. To this day, I wonder how they got on - I'm ashamed as I don't know - but we let those 3 (and, of course, the 3 families they supported) down but saved our skins - and lost everything we had when we got on that plane with nothing but our British Passports and a suitcase each - and survived thanks to extended family who supported us initially once in the UK. Once Rhodesia was handed over, your likelihood of living - or dying - depended on your Tribe - period. Ask those who died as they plunged down mine shafts thanks to Mugabe and his "tribe". Not White Brits here - but Zimbabweans whose families had lived there for 1,000s of years - murdered by their own!

Despite what may befall HK and the locals, I suspect they'll fare far better than those in the "new" Zimbabwe - of who's regime, even the Chinese have been very wary of during their "colonization" of Africa over the past few decades! That's quite telling! I mean no offence - and wish those caught up in this all the best - but fighting it can be a dangerous game if you have no chance of winning - better to employ your skills and energy to make the best of the hand of cards that fate (& the UK government) has dealt you. As my kids proved, it is more than possible to survive in China. You just need to re-write the rules you live by. Better that than the bottom of a mine shaft in Africa.......

As the Western World and Organizations are struggling to battle through this deliberately released Chinese virus, a more sinister play is at hand. China are now bulldozing their way through HK and the S. China Sea and everyone else is too distracted with their countries and economies in freefall!

Unfortunately the majority of people will not see this until it is too late.

Of course the media are aware of this but they are being paid nicely by China to continue to stir the racist (USA) and covid (Europe) cauldrons.

Does anybody on here remember the Yellow Vest Protests in France for the past few years? Not really. Media. Blackout.

But hey, maybe I am crazy.

Yes, you are.

controlledrest

Good luck smacking down the worlds second largest economy. Soon to be the largest economy, and hence then taking the spot from the US as the “worlds policeman”.

To be fair they would probably do a better job than the Americans did as long as you are the ones looking in and not the ones looking out.

And China is also moving quite a lot of its production to Vietnam as well. Cheaper labour. International companies and their manufacturers are just moving from one once cheap labour country to a now cheaper labour country.

Hot 'n' High

You left out ‘money’.
That’s all they care about.
SMT said it himself; “I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China.”
If you think life is about living on the top floor of a 60 story building, having a DH carry your kid’s school bag for them, owning a Ferrari that has never averaged more than 40kph, having a 50ft yacht that you haven’t seen for 3 years, then knock yourself out- stay in Hong Kong China.
If you value the simpler things in life, then I suggest you get out now.

highflyer40

Well, some of the cheapest pilot labour in the world is now right here in good old HK.

China is quietly spreading its strong and sticky web through Australia, Africa, Sri Lanka, Fiji and Vanuatu.....

Yep!
Not so much Belt and Road, more like Noose and Shackles.
Can’t pay? The debt collectors are coming.

Regardless of wether it is Africa, Australia the UK or anywhere else getting into debt with China is going to end badly, its caused by shortsighted often corrupt politicians failing to develop national industries for short term gain or popularity. We are dealing with a Chinese Dictatorship intent on global economic takeover and we are letting it happen, even encouraging it, when we should be developing our own industry and technology. Cheap deals in the short term destroys home enterprise, when you have the ability to produce thats when the price goes up

Student protests only accelerated the speed that China absorbed HK, it was going to happen and no one outside was going to do more than mild protest.

- lost the ability to produce

Hot 'n' High

I feel for your family history and those of the three families you remember. At the end of the day one has to survive - and sacrifices has to be made - you know this better than I do, I’m privileged in comparison.

However, I believe it’s important to strive to compare with stronger and successful democracies and not corrupted undemocratic regimes like the Chinese one and more and more so the Hong Kong one. It’s a natural human instinct to look at those worse off and then feel ok, but it’s ultimately not a healthy one. Admire freedom and democracy - Hong Kong has fallen down the wrong path.

Nailed it!

LapSap, you do have a point re "being driven by money" - like parts of all societies to some extent - but that is but one aspect of national development.

So, for example, will China wish to "normalise HK" and blend it more into mainland China? In a way, it's a bit embarrassing politically having a "legacy jewel" so they may wish to make an example of the place - a message for those on the margins of China who might be looking towards independence - such as Tibet. The protests we have seen will simply have strengthened Chinese resolve in that department. It also depends if the Chinese elite wish to maintain their own private "getaway" on the coast. And how will HK, in the longer term, fit in to overall Chinese economic development; how HK developed before the handover is no indication of how it will move forward from here. As noted by some, China is now off-loading production elsewhere on cost grounds so the economy itself is starting to morph. And there is the whole "The South China Sea's Gathering Storm" Thread in "Military Aviation" which makes HK just an "annoyance", the solution to which will pale into insignificance compared to what else is going on in the region.

I really don't know. However, in closing, I return to my view that, in setting up the transition arrangements, the UK implied things would happen in a certain way when it was quite clear that another path would be followed. Either the UK Government were naive - or they simply lied. TBH, with the UK, it's hard to know which!!!! :hmm:

Update - I see Sam Ting Wongs' post to which I refer has gone - I'll leave this post in place - Mods, please delete if now superfluous.

Sam Ting Wong, I apologise as my comments were not intended to be condescending nor hypocritical - maybe "sad despair mixed with weariness". What those people did as individuals is, as you say, to be highly commended and extremely brave, just as Tiananmen Square was 3 decades ago, and countless other examples over the years, Tibet being yet another good example.

The point I was making (badly it seems) is that the response of the HK protesters was, I suspect, based on what they believed would happen during and after the transition. That vision was generated by what Britain believed it had negotiated with China ahead of the withdrawal. But was that "vision" realistic in the first place? We have many cases where Britain has assumed things would work out in a certain way when, in fact, from those on the ground, it was quite obvious that a disaster was opening up. Zimbabwe is a classic case where they thought one thing would happen where those on the ground knew what the true result would be when Mugabe seized power. The result was cataclysmic - and predictable - for the entire population - and the West did nothing. And that was against a tin-pot Dictator where no-one actually knows how many were dumped down mineshafts. Lets say 100,000 which falls in the lower end of the estimates I've come across - and that's before you even consider the Zimbawean economy - if that's what you call it - and those who have died of avoidable famine and political thuggery.

If, as I believe, the HK handover agreement for 50 years was destined to unravel earlier based on China's "form", then the valiant struggles of the protesters is based on being sold an unachievable dream in the first place. That is the great sadness. Of course, "we are where we are" and there are rallying cries about it - Lord Patten said today/yesterday that "if the EU went ahead with the economic deal with China, which has not yet been ratified by the European parliament, it would make a 'mockery' of Europe's ambitions to be taken seriously as a global and economic player.". So that has to be backed up by action or else it is yet more hollow words.

My frustration is not with the poor protesters - but with what I believe was an unrealistic goal from the outset - that the "one country, two systems" would remain until 2047. My argument is that the protesters were let down and that a more realistic acceptance by Britain back in the 80's and early 90's of how a more rapid transition should have been managed was not pursued - the 50 year deal seems very much like "kicking a can down the road" until it becomes another generations problem. Beijing signed to get a signature - that was it and they now are clearly tired of "kicking the can". So, where do we go on a global basis? China has never been one for backing down and they have considerable expansionist plans which involve far, far more than HK. It's clear the Western world is undecided as to how far to push and what can be achieved. The risk of a major confrontation is growing - the out-turn of which is something I don't think anyone can know.

However, from my connections in Beijing, the people seem to get on, have a reasonable way of life with, I know, areas of abject poverty too. But China has been improving conditions - and will continue to do so. You, yourself said at Post #6 that "The ascent of China and Asia has just begun, and with a loyal government in charge HK will have the continuous support of Beijing. I believe Hong Kong will be one of the richest and most prosperous cities of the 21th century, globally, not only in China.". I guess the question, for HK at least, is would it be better to accept the "50 year deal" was unachievable so work with Beijing and accept that HK is making the best of a bad job and that full integration happens before 2047 - or to hold out for broke. That is for HK locals to decide. As for the wider expansionist plans by Beijing; well, that's a whole new problem the West must try and figure out.

Was just about to put in a non-directional form hotn high.Cheers.

Considering how easy it apparently is to brainwash thousands of alledgedly free American deplorables to storm the Capitol, all that just with a few tweets by an evil president, a bit of Foxnews and a selection of Facebook feeds, maybe spare a thought for the poor mainland Chinese. They grow up within a ruthless state school system, life-long surveillance and a wrong word could land you in a labor camp. Let's not mix up the government with the people.

No probs STW. I completely agree - and am sorry that it came across otherwise. A dreadful situation to find yourself in as a local - made worse by the politicians who brokered the deal in the first place? And, yes, the boys played the tightrope from Day 1 - but still love the Chinese (people). Anyway, I'll bow out here as I've bored everyone enough I suspect! Cheers, H 'n' H

Sam Ting Wong

I thought the French media had the better perspective, they distinguish between the bulk of the demonstrators and the 'casseurs', the people who are there to break things. The Germans have the 'chaoten', the chaos producers.
These individuals rely on the cover of the mass demonstration to perform violent acts, in the expectation of creating worse. It seems a form of political terrorism which is very effective. The sponsorship would be very interesting imho.

Oh, cry me a river, STW!

Have a look at the pictures of DC from the riots in June! Not a "deplorable" to be seen! Just "mostly peaceful" black folks, looking for some education.........

etudiant

That is spot on.
The vision of over a million peaceful marchers from all walks of HK society on a couple of weekends in 2019 was extremely moving and sending a reasonable message to Beijing.

As soon as the 100 or so extremely athletic looking (much more than any wimpy HK uni student I had seen in 20 years) and ‘geared up’ radicals or casseurs as you put it appeared on the scene, trashing public infrastructure, the whole original impetus of the ordinary people was lost.
Who they were (always seemed to be the same ones who magically ran just before police arrived) and who was responsible for their sponsorship was always a big question mark for me.

All these posts about freedom and moral righteousness. It's actually very simple. Hong Kong is the meat in the Sandwich of a great power struggle. The struggle is not a struggle between 800lb Gorillas (USA and China) it's a struggle of one growing silverback (China) against a coalition of others (USA, UK, China, India, Australia etc.) who are growing tired of it's tyrannical, coercion.

Hong Kong will no longer be relevant in the world and, as long as China remains communist, they and their growth will be contained. Manufacturers are already leaving and many business interactions with China are being made illegal.

If I was in Hong Kong, I'd get out while I still could.