To call management amoral is like calling a lion amoral because he eats a gazelle. Management act in the interest of shareholders, period.

What a waste of energy.

Management
 

You're funny in a dense and naive sort of way😲

I think you mean management are supposed to act in the interest of shareholders.
Inept managers don’t always do so by default!
Sometimes ethics also enters into the equation.
The lower you get down the food chain the more the connection to shareholders interests becomes diluted. Self interest becomes a far more realistic driver.

Every player in this game wants to maximise their profit. It's all about money, nothing else. You, me, Piet, the board, the shareholders, everybody wants as much as possible for himself. It's business, there are no morals, no ethics, just a legislation that sets the rules and a market that hands you your cards.

Sure but you are leaving out negligence that often goes unpunished out unethical behavior. Originally the discussion was about whether management amoral. I think it should be whether they ever are immoral.

controlledrest

Happy to help out with a few random vectors and a couple of holds at ABBEY/BETTY/CANTO seeing as CAD just ditched a bunch of experienced expats.

I’m sorry to hear that Suzie but I guess with so few flights it was inevitable.
While I’m still here I will continue to fly as efficiently and professionally as possible. I’ll let others play games, it only makes you more bitter.

Sam Ting Wong

And there you have it. Your admission in writing.
Except as someone above said: you are dense.
And wrong.
I, for one, never needed to “maximise my profit”.
It wasn’t “all about money, (and) nothing else” for me.
I cared about not being lied to, cheated and stolen from.
I would have loved to continue working for cx if there was even a modicum of inspiration or example from management. Not even one manager demonstrated leadership in this outfit.
Not a single one I would have followed into “war” if this were a different industry.
And before you state the obvious that this is not the military: you are absolutely right as not a single one of our “managers” (including your beloved Gus) would have lasted very long.
The equivalent of “war” in this industry exists and I would have loved to work for and have worked for companies I would have gladly given up my “profit” for many years to help their survival.
I know restaurant owners with more leadership skills than current and past cx management.

That and being surrounded by gits like yourself who could only talk about and were interested in themselves and money, make me happy I am no longer part of the cx operation.

Thank you for your honesty.

The chest beating is pathetic.

How much have we lost? For some crew it’s up to 60%.
How much will you recoup by adding another block hour each month? Approximately 1%.
Well that’ll wipe the smirk off management’s face when they discover they’ve only stolen 59% from you and your family. I’ve no doubt crew will find a way to sweep up a crumb or two, but it’ll hardly have the company reassessing their strategy.

That being said, a manager who remains on his legacy contract because his role is incompatible with a productivity based system while forcing crew onto a productivity contract while knowing the rostering system is just as incompatible is hardly going to be taken seriously. I’ve no doubt they will be watching and will make an example of a couple of crew. That’s the only way they know how to lead. From behind with a big stick.

May I ask which management positions have been retained on legacy contracts?

Well it wouldn't be too hard to guess, would it Long long time ago ?
And trainers with preferential housing rates, guaranteed hours, leave etc. ( compared to the troops).
Oh, and unpublished salary levels. A matter between the individual and the co.
Nice eh ?

Goodluck to Cathay Pathetic thinking they can save a few bucks with this one. I'm glad myself and few others with some experience behind us, said no to the HR marketing team when they showed us this same per hour payment idea already two years ago at a Pilot Expo in Berlin. The bright eyed, bushy tailed, wannabee cadets/second officers on the other hand wanted all of it. Just give them free lanyards, Cathay pens and they were sold on this new idea.

Here in Europe we can clearly see who is paid monthly and who is paid per hour. The per hour boys frequently turn down direct to shortcuts, prefer the further runway option, offer to do an extra hold, fly slower and actually taxi at around 10 knots. I wonder how their pax feel when we frequently overtake them on the parallel taxiways whilst taxiing at a normal/acceptable pace. When I say they fly slower, I have seen on occasion other carriers flying up to 50 knots slower than us on the same route, same aircraft type just because their crew are paid per hour.

It doesn't seem like much, but really adds up to the monthly bank balance apparently and of course it's done because the crew are also trying to rack up more hours & bugger off asap. The carriers that operate with this method of treating their crew are short term career options (unlike Cathay, or so Cathay used to be) and everyone here in Europe knows it. That's how the low cost carriers get away with it. A fair amount make new pilots pay for their ratings because they expect them to and in many ways want to them leave when an opportunity presents itself. This so they can keep churning in cheaper crew and coming up with worse conditions at every opportunity. I'm not so sure if Cathay will be able to pull this one off when things get back to normal, and for the sake of you guys/girls I really hope they aren't able to.

Interesting observation. The implication is that these companies now believe that experience levels have far less a value to the safety of an operation than in the past. If true, then this new business model of dumbing down the profession would pretty much spell the end to decent T&Cs across the industry. Not just LCCs.

Are we looking at a bleak new world where a couple of kids who have rote learned the Ops Manuals are given the keys to an an aluminium tube packed with a couple of hundred people?

In a word, yes.

We aren't looking at it we are living it. This has been the case since the mass of expat cadets started with only a hundred hours flight instruction time. Pick the people who can learn the FCTM off by heart and you'll be "safe"

lucille

Been the case in Europe for a long time now. The whole 'Children of the Magenta Line' thing. Thing is, it is probably true (that experience does not improve safety significantly enough for an airline to value it) ATSB in Australia studied it
Pilot experience and performance in an airline environment

controlledrest

I think this whole rant by the CP was pretty much code for: We know what you guys are planning on this new COS, and we will be watching, so look out!

Given that this pandemic won't be over by mid this year, I would be willing to bet that they will look forward to making an example of a few that milk the per hour charges just to make the others submit and toe the line. As far as the management are concerned it will be a win win.

Besides, there ain't any point in milking those charges until you get beyond the minimum, which I gather for everyone on the pax fleet its the minimum for the foreseeable future.

I find this a little extraordinary considering all the documentation provided about the threat of a "Currency Deficit". Prior to KA's cessation, the message was clear from Flight Op's, please be conservative. KA Managers driving this message home survived the purge and moved over to CX. The couldn't feel any different or any less concerned now? There's got to be a lot of life change and stress on the CX Flight Deck and it would be extraordinary for a pilot in a management role not to be aware?

Anyways, hoping the CX guys can see well beyond this inconsistent management rhetoric and look after themselves. It's an unusually stressful place to work- well maybe that was just flying to China- as many of my ex-KA friends can't believe how relaxing unemployment is. Once you've navigated the bumpy road of the CX redundancy process of course.

Take it easy!

Yes but the wheel turns, it always does, slowly, like the ox and the earth. One day, in the foreseeable future there will be a travel boom to levels never seen before as people travel to that special place they wanted to see before they die or another virus or disaster locks them at home. It will become known as the roaring twenties (again) just like post WW1. When that day comes pilots will once again be in very high demand, it will come and salaries will rise to suit. Those days will be pay pack for companies that treated employees poorly, they will bleed pilots to other carriers.

You are correct Icarus, but unfortunately the current pilots suffer the loss of income and benefits. It will be several years at best before CX feels inclined to increase pay, and when they do it will be like pulling teeth! The company will reap the reward of the savings on COS18, and they have done it on the backs of their loyal staff. The truth of their intent is that there was no offer of a snap-back provision in the deal. They know good times will return...but those good times will only apply to management and their bonuses. Generally speaking, the career of "pilot" is over as far as CX is concerned.