And this is why exactly no one should sign a g0dd&mn thing. Force their hand. If they have to LIFO a few hundred more, so be it. It is the only way.

I'll have some of what you're having, thanks.

What, balls?

Even if I find the way they have dealt with KA employees unfair and can't understand how you save money training pilots and cabin crew on A320 when you already have crews trained on them.
I understand the hard choice you're facing and we might have had the best deal: No thinking take the money and go .
All the best for the future

Zuki says 80% of the 2000 scaked CC wont sign.

Lets see when push comes to shove.

And no housing, too.

I'm afraid Freehills is right - when things change so dramatically sometimes what you are left with is ... no choice. In employment terms for pilots this is like a real tsunami. or an earthquake - EVRYTHING is gone and you're luck to be still breathing. The past life is wiped out except as a memory - all you can do is to look forward. You might be lucky and get some help but don't bet on it.

And as for trying to sue "someone" who has no money for recompense... good luck

yes fair point, I hadn’t considered no factoring for Cos 18... but they do get credit for Sims I thought? Didn’t Cx cough that up recently?

Anyway that does make a difference BUT we still don’t get Expat benefits...

Point taken though.

RTPC no credit nor allowance as they are regulatory. Only CW or any other form of crew up will have a fixed allowance.

Hopefully the company will look after any Australian crew stranded in Hong Kong if they are terminated as there are are strict limits on the numbers allowed to return.

https://www.smartraveller.gov.au/COV...rying-get-home

Don’t get sick
 

Don’t forget to put a few dollars aside from your ‘competative’ CoS20 salaries to top up your ‘competitive’ CX health cover plans. The basic cover, especially for F/O and S/O, looks wafer thin. Fingers crossed your spouse or kids don’t get sick.

You've got to hand it to these guys, they're certainly not letting a good crisis go to waste.

Despite decades of posturing, the company has not placed another 'sign or be fired' contract on the table simply because they ran the risk of losing more aircrew then they could possibly replace without the rails coming off.

​​​​​​With the fleet parked, nobody else hiring and no recovery on the foreseeable horizon, this is the opportunity of a lifetime. There has never been a better time to roll the dice.

​​​

Can someone explain to me how it suddenly becomes legal to violate the LIFO clause in our contract, if we don't sign this thing. Let me get it straight. You sign, no LIFO. You don't sign, no LIFO. If you're a 777 pilot, you're literally signing (or not signing) your job away in either case. So why on earth would you sign this?

They don't care one way or the other. They'll either get your signature or resignation by the deadline. There is no third option.

​​​​

Mostly because people get scared and when they do they buy into crap to try to cling to a portion of what they used to have.

In the HKG arena (which isn't necessarily the case elsewhere) it comes down to enforceability. CAN you recover damages for a termination based on a scam to get rid of a seniority based layoff system (as well as the 6 month pay protection)--simply changing it to a two step process (a person isn't directly laid off on the old contract where LIFO applies -- he is forced to transition to a NEW contract and THEN laid off at will where LIFO doesn't apply; and when this happens he also forfeits the original pay protected six months) ? Dunno. In most developed nations this would be seen to be what it actually is by a third party who'd adjudicate it accordingly (especially after a company refused government stimulus with the specific intent of altering an existing in-force contract). Which is why most carriers in those nations don't do this (instead having some form of early out package for force reduction as well as negotiating an amendment to their contract which might provide a time period to go at reduced capacity/pay while preserving seniority and everything else. And if layoffs are required beyond this doing so IAW the contract with the associated recall rights).

What I suspect most in HKG are doing is believing (rightly or wrongly) that it won't happen to THEM and that they'll at least get something out of the deal. Looking at the shiny transition period (where they might get some continued income and housing) without realizing that could end abruptly too. Is it the right choice ? Depends on the individual. I would hope they're weighing the negative aspects of living under the conditions they are (with time and opportunities elsewhere that aren't recoverable; those opportunities perhaps being there albeit perhaps in a different career field) with the uncertainty they inject into their lives by choosing to sign over.

Well, objectively speaking, there is no career at CX anymore. It's quite incredible to conclude that I went from working for arguably the best airline in the world to now one of the worst. The reality is that there is probably no way back from this. Either everyone refuses to sign and it heads to the courts, or (as I suspect), the majority will roll over prior to the 28th and effectively "volunteer" for the change to their contracts. You can earn almost 2 1/2 times as much with some of the mainland based carriers....that should help illuminate the reality of where CX has taken all of us. If you are under 55 (and certainly if married), there is really no way forward with this airline. I would spend my time updating my resume and considering almost any other job, particularly back home. Sadly, they have pulled the entire rug out from underneath us. It was good while it lasted...

nb: several KA pilots have just placed their homes up for sale....at 25% or greater drop below market. More to come...

I find myself more in agreement with you every day. The raping of ka was a brutal prelude to the campaign now being waged at cx. The veiled threat about back filling vacancies from people who have left the group would indicate a long and orchestrated litany of lies to reach this stage. The theme is ”you have no choice and a contract is no.longer enforcable” the doomsday scenario of offering redundant crews jobs (where on earth else can the locals go to feed their families) is the final nightmarish scenario pitting pilot against pilot.
Next step hive off lower yield routes to express rinse and repeat what happened at ka.

SQ used to have expat contracts with housing and schooling allowances, that ended a few years ago. There are still foreigners employed but everyone is on the same terms. There are no bases but some Malaysians commute. Living costs in Singapore are a bit lower than Hong Kong, especially housing if you are a local.

Pay cuts have been agreed but these are temporary and include senior management. No doubt that CX are taking full advantage of this once in a lifetime crisis and intend to have T&Cs determined by market forces going forward. Soon, only the ME3 will have expat packages and even those are being reduced.

My mob recently got rid of 25% of flight crew and even with that we're still planning on having a surplus for the next three years, once demand picks up it's probably another year of getting those who want to return back online. External recruitment very unlikely before 2025 and then they can be very picky about who they take on.

With long haul premium and transit traffic likely to be the last to recover, I can't see CX planning on carrying a huge pilot surplus for the next 4 - 5 years, even on the new contract, whilst every other major airline is laying off 20 - 35% of their pilots. I think Slasher has got it right, sign the new contract or you're out, which gets rid of a few. Once the new contract is inplace, lay off those you want to get rid of under terms favourable to the company. Carry a small excess of pilots in the meantime and when you need to recruit again, they'll come running for whatever's on offer.

Doesn't matter if they overshoot with the layoffs as there will be plenty of suitable candidates around who can quickly be brought back online.

Watching them play the long game makes me smile. Even though I’m pucked like everyone else.

They could well lose the roll of the dice even with the cuts they are still bleeding and CX is a essentially British company in China. What will differentiate them from China Southern or Air China in the long term?
How will this impact the international schools, property market and so on? All of which affects people’s view of the place and their choice of where to live and work. Singapore is starting to look like a better place to be.

Every banker and venture capitalist is thinking the exact same thing. If you want to be in China, go to China. If you want to be outside China, Hong Kong can no longer help you.

every venture capalist lookin at Singapore?

Not so fast read what happened to James Dyson.Came into Singapore with fanfare to open electric car factory.Now cancelled and sold his penthouse at 13% lost.'Dyson kills Singapore electric car project with closure of auto division"
"Vacuum cleaner billionaire James Dyson sold Singapore's most expensive penthouse for $47 million — that's $7 million less than what he paid for it a year ago"

for those who think Singapore will be better than HK.... please wake up. try it for yourself if you dare. its about time CX pilots look outside and compare their salaries. still way higher and better than others. i hope nobody will sign the new terms but in reality it will be high percentage ppl are signing.

The grass is definitely not greener in the 'Garden City'. SQ got rid of a handful of non-PR pilots. No LIFO. Meanwhile everyone else takes a temporary pay cut to save themselves. 'Union' not a word for the non-PRs who lost their jobs.

As for Singapore, they are a nationalistic xenophobic nation with more CANNOTS than HK.

you know Lion city very well.

Outsiders will do well not to believe the shiny brochures.. Caveat Emptor

You have to hand it to the DFO. He has achieved what his predecessors could only ever dream of. A frightened, compliant flight crew, queuing up to sign over to permanently worse conditions. S/O's and F/O's can now look forward to a 'competitive' 2 point pay scale for the next decade or two. At least he cannot use the old ' but you get an annual increment …' excuse when refusing your next rise.

Here's to your bonus Chris....Its gonna be a whooper!!!

"management:
 

I used lower case M when I wrote management for a reason ! CC was chosen as DFO for a reason, he was the most pliable sycophant they could find.. Also had picked were the other row of fools on the 3rd fl following the last "Project Altitude" and all for the same reason. That organisational structure, BTW, designed by the wife of one of the "management team" ...
They all would have been actively involved in this pathetic excuse of a "solution" and reveling in the dopamine and adrenaline of its implementation... It's a POWER thing.

All will suffer drastically in this endeavour EXCEPT them.. If they tell you different - they are the Devil incarnate and will suffer when their time comes👹

Question from an outsider: if you are a 10 year FO and you refuse to sign. What will be your severance pay roughly?

I believe it would be three months basic salary, but am open to being corrected on that.

that’s ridiculous!

Welcome to Hong Kong labor standards.
Three months notice or pay in lieu - no cause is required other than employer whim.

Better than the UK. Legal redundancy payout for someone at the age of 40 with 10 years would be 10 weeks, but capped at 538 pounds a week, so 5,380. Higher if you are older.

what the news did not mentioned was the lower contract pays still way above industry standard. look around you. news media always one sided story

When you factor in the real cost of living in HK, the new contract is not sustainable (especially if you have a family). Maybe in Taiwan it would work, but not here. Take note, thank you.

icemankk2001

And that makes it ok?

Wrong! With the new contract, a senior captain at CX now earns less than a senior FO in the Sandpit.

Wrong! With the new contract, a senior captain at CX now earns less than a JUNIOR FO in the Sandpit. No tax remember. Also better health care. 100% schooling paid for. Housing cheaper. Should I go on?

FO friends in the desert are on base of about 30,000aed++. So 63k HKD and if they are lucky to fly maybe some extra money on the side. Housing is no longer a cash hand out. Even singles have been forced into villas. That is more like JFO pay on COS18.

this really shows CX pilots are enjoying their heavenly perks. please come back to earth. thanks. anyway I do hope majority of CX pilots not sign the new COS. bring CX to court please. fight till the end.... lets see who will lose more.