Unpaid leave offer
 

Its been a while since I left CX and posted on this site but I had to today having heard and watched the latest plea from the CEO.
A word to the wise. The last time this was "offered" was for 1 month unpaid leave which was repaid to all EXCEPT captains at the end of the year.
Once bitten twice shy is the old saying. CX is not cash strapped. It has huge reserves. During SARS it was estimated the company could shut down for 18 months and
continue to pay all its staff and outgoings and still not dent its current account reserves. So don't be fooled but you will be bullied. Your CP's will be getting instructions to
give you a call if you do not volunteer. Your progression in the company will be under review if you don't make this gesture they will tell you. Worth recording the call because it is intimidatory and you could take action
if you felt the company did apply pressure on you.
My advice is to keep your salary rolling in. Let the CEO and Directors take this short term cash hit. They can certainly afford it as you will see from the annual report due in March and the bonuses they paid themselves in 2019.
One last thought. The CX Group is now carrying KA which is effectively grounded. The first step should have been to claw back the 13th month paid to KA staff not get CX staff to bail them out again.

Wise words indeed.

Fool me once, shame on me.... fool me twice, nah

Oh gee thanks mate, you couldn't resist sticking the knife into ka pilots there at the end, thanks for that.

KA pilots have NEVER once supported their CX colleagues. You got your 13th month for contractual reasons and you could pay it back. KA is effectively grounded and CX will carry it again because it is part of the "group". But this "group" only emerges when it suits Swires most times its FUGIMAR ( F++k You Jack I'm All Right ).
We'll see how many KA guys volunteer their 3 weeks away. During SARS it was less that 25%. In CX it was nearly 99%.

Swire ain't going to let CX go bankrupt so tell them to go and get stuffed.

BBC News saying 90% of their flights to China cancelled by CX. At the last showing Merlin Swire & family were worth £5 Billion - is he taking unpaid leave (or working for nothing)?? The Directors will be offering nothing and certainly won't be expected to take a financial hit. As the man said "fool me once……..".
AS for the "this will adversely affect your career" conversation - that kind of begs the question what exactly are the prospects career-wise?
Cathay has a huge war chest available to attack staff (especially pilots) with so come on Merlin - use some of Daddy's treasure chest………….

Well you're entitled to your opinion but it's sad to see such animosity as we are all colleagues at the end of the day.

Been there done that
 

The trough is just for the porkers not the rank and file bread winners. Stay away from management final solutions at all costs. It’s just bonus protection yet again.

Agreed. Sadly this sort of things brings out people’s nobler natures. As you can see.
And biscuits ( yet again ) hasn’t even got a dog in the race.

Let me be clear. I am not trying to set KA pilots against CX pilots or vv.
I have retired to a small village in Essex which boasts one pub, one post-office and a Spar supermarket plus 2 retired Swire/CX middle managers (both non pilots ).
They both get unlimited 1st Class travel on CX in their retirement and take every opportunity still to berate the pilots in CX. "Overpaid primadonnas the lot of us/you" they say the odd time I bump into them at the pub. ( they never buy a round either).
Their hatred for CX pilots is palpable even in their retirement.

What I'm saying with todays announcement ( already on the BBC ) is that it was only 6 weeks ago that the "we're all one happy family ( except for the pilots)" was the mantra from senior management. You're all getting a 13th month ( except the pilots ).
We're here to offer you a rewarding career ( except the pilots ). I'm even told ( but yet to be confirmed ) the company will provide face masks to all employess ( except the pilots ).

Well, it comes back at you. Let the family take their 3 weeks unpaid leave if they like but this time without the pilots.

Thats all I'm saying.

I’m sorry but why would you give up something you are contractually entitled to?
Why not work for free right away?

Sometimes this place amazes me.

In the "Cathay of old" this wouldn't even be a question or issue. Everyone would (somewhat gladly) take it and pitch in to help out.

But this isn't the cathay of old anymore. For whatever reason, the Management has decided--for literally decades--to play different pilot groups off against one another such that it could chip away at the COS. In the more recent past this was HKPA and full housing. When many of these offers were (rightly) rejected, they turned their back on everything completely and imposed POS 18/19. Deciding to hire 'refugee' pilots on a WAYYYYYY inferior contract in order to position and play this off against existing COS. Pilots who would do almost anything to get out of their country and/or lot and knowingly ignore warnings about what they were getting into. If it was 'pre internet' days I might have understood this but it wasn't. And the Company banked on those of higher seniority not wanting to dump that (some did) in order to maintain qualifications and manning.

Managers (IMHO) having the full intent of using a seemingly limitless supply of new joiners to undercut conditions of those established here in a never ending process to chip away. Cleverly interleaving a scope clause that allows for system wide flying by any pilot in the group (so even the subsidiaries could be played or utilized for flexibility to plug holes).

These new joiners joining at the lowest end of the seniority list and being the first to go if anything bad happened. With a full understanding of this as well even if promised sunshine and unicorns.

It sometimes boggles my mind at how individuals continue to enable bad behavior. And undermine themselves and others. If we were on ONE contract system wide this might make some sense. But this isn't the case; it's been a series of evolving inferior contracts designed to undermine those in existence.

Step back and THINK -- THINK about how things have gone over the past several years.

IMHO, there is simply no reason whatsoever for the pilot body to volunteer for unpaid leave (in fact, IMHO it's completely counterproductive to everyone's best interests. Even contractually, layoff and recall is a better situation overall). In the long run it's in no ones' best interests; it covers up for and enables the practice of hiring on ever declining conditions. Even in the case of layoffs, most of the COSs/CBA's/CA's allow not only for recall later but also guarantee salary for a (relatively lengthy--at least in the 'older' COSs) set period of time. While those 'upchain' are generally qualified to fill slots 'downchain' the reverse isn't true. In a way, it's a day of reckoning caused by something totally unforeseeable. Then again what goes around comes around.

I'd LOVE to hear someone with a valid counterpoint.

RA65 for all those remaining on COS99 and I will consider taking some unpaid leave, but ONLY if the deal is in legally binding words without room for re-interpretation.
SLS, Been there done that and they stole the tshirt!
Why not exercise the redundancy clause in our contracts and see a bit of last in first out?
The COS18 joiners are not getting paid what they were promised anyway.

Slasher great post.
yes the company is in crisis. Not even fabricated, or self induced by fuel hedges however;

Asking for equal unpaid leave when we have , unequal working conditions, unequal overtime/ EFP schemes, unequal sick days, unequal pay back to pilots for pilots agreeing to unpaid leave in the past and , unequal 13th month payments or limits etc.

The pilots need to use this time to unite everyone back to equal before their scheme is considered.

@ United Biscuits

How many times have CX pilots supported their KA colleagues? About the same!

The 13th month is in the KA contract, just like it was in the CX contract. You have to remember that the KA contract was almost a carbon copy of the CX contract when KA started. Everything the KA pilots have that CX pilots don't, CX gave up voluntarily. As it happens, the CX pilots still have their 13th month. It was rolled into their pay sometime in the 90's. If KA pilots voluntarily give up their 13th month, CX pilots should volunteer to take a corresponding pay cut. And now, the company calls the 13th month the CNY bonus which means KA pilots no longer receive the discretionary bonus. So technically, they're worse off than their CX brethren.

Bullsh!t. KA had too many pilots took unpaid leave during SARS. The company had to recall some, to find they had signed contracts with other companies and were subsequently short of pilots.

Really? It sounds like you are part of a management disinformation campaign. You say you're retired, so why bother stirring the pot? Enjoy you pint and try to lose the chips. Remember - you're retired!

The two times in my career when we were asked to take SLS we were fully repaid later in the year. I was a Captain during both of those occasions. I was fully reimbursed on both occasions. End of. This occasion is happening on the back of 8 months of downward passenger numbers due to Hong Kong unrest. Open your eys for heavens sake. Bury your head if you wish but at least get your facts right about the past

All I'm saying is before you volunteer to take SLS ask this question "will the board, directors and senior management forego their bonuses this year ?"

Answers on a postcard please.

Not much flying for KA left now with Taiwan announcing quarantine for arrivals from HK.
I can see both airlines virtually grounded within a week or two as yet more countries impose restrictions.

Total and utter bullsh!t You don't have a clue what you are talking about so just shut up.

I must opine...

CX Management has sowed the seeds of hate, division, and derision towards its pilots for the better part of three decades. Now, as has become their norm in times of distress, they come to the pilots with their hands out looking for relief from wage obligations. In Jewish culture, that’s called chutzpah.

Let me ask those of you perhaps hoodwinked by such a request. Will CX generously share profits in the good times? Or will they simply increase the dividend to shareholders and their own bonuses? I suspect the latter.

CX hasn’t paid a substantive profit share since 2010, and 2007 before that. Unlike Delta who just paid its employees 2 months as a bonus totaling $1.6 billion USD, CX has all but done away with profit sharing bonuses such that they can pay themselves and shareholders more.

So let me ask you... Is this fair? CX comes to employees for concessions in hard times, but then does not share the spoils in good times. Why would you voluntarily subject yourselves to such unfairness?

If this is the only way for you to get time off that you want or need, by all means, fill your boots. However, don’t submit yourselves to management pressure tactics. Have some backbone and just say no.

Amen, CXorcist.

Unpaid Leave? Get f**ked!

Last SLS $ was paid back except to the Captains (who still lost a week). The company wasn't going to pay anyone, but they gave 13th month to the HKG office workers and the non-HKG employees complained (rightly so) that they had given 3 weeks unpaid leave and this $ was now being passed onto the HKG employees.

Last year, yet again, 13th Month was in effect paid to all other employees, the pilots were shafted again

No one has even apologised for the billions gambled away on fuel hedges

There is no mention of what the senior managers are going to contribute

I might consider agreeing to SLS if:

After the Captains didn't get paid back SLS... sorry..

After no profit share.. sorry.

Thrilled I left, and hoping no one is dumb enough to take the leave. You'll get the time off paid if simply grow a pair.

Jack is spelt with a J

Well thats not quite the truth is it.

All had their LWOP repaid in full, except the captains who only received 3/4 of it. So you actually only took 1 week unpaid leave, and had 3 extra paid weeks leave that year, ie 9 weeks paid leave.
Was it unfair you didn't get 100% back? Yes. But don't make out like you got completely stiffed.

NAILED it!!!!!!

You guys realise the new UPL policy doesn’t pay housing or any allowances now while your off.

Conveniently introduced just before the plea for help!

Should I just tell the landlord I won’t be paying rent for the next 3 weeks? He should be fine with that...

True. Unpaid leave, strategic leave (?) or something similar with a bonus, and whatever this will be. No housing, no edu, medical benefits still retained...if you can find a clinic that will let you in.
If they don’t offer housing and other benefits I can’t see there being an unseemly rush amongst senior guys..the very demographic who cost them the most.

Seriously???.......

This will be a black mark against anyone who might want to apply for a TC position in the future!

Laughable.

CX won't exist (as it is now) in this time next year. Cathay Dragon will be gone.

Any expat with a sense of self respect will have left.

Show is over folks. This will make SARS look like Chicken Pox.

“so just shut up” ?! - are you kidding me - I’m assuming you’re just frustrated because school is closed for another 2 weeks and you’re sick of the helper ?

So the entire Group take 3 weeks unpaid leave and then when Hong Kong Airlines finally dies an ungrateful death, in March, CX will be scrambling to “help out” the Hong Kong people and fly the Hong Kong Airlines cancelled flights, leading to everyone being recalled from their critical unpaid leave. This will be followed by a new COS20, offered to those poor HKCAD ATPL holding ex-HKA out of work pilots to “help” them out. Possible/probable?

Sorry Aus2, I have to agree with Dilbert68. 13th month was incorporated into salary scales for BASED pilots only. Every time someone tries to slip into the conversation the notion that ALL pilots got 13th month incorporated in their salary IT MUST BE SHOUTED DOWN.

Are you serious? CX pilots didn't even support their own 49'ers but rather ducked for cover lest they be next. Seriously weak and now they wonder why CX is such a crappy job.

I remember once being asked at the Kai Tax aviation club bar why KA pilots had pleats in the front of their uniform pants, "its because they need the room" was the obvious answer.

I forgot to mention that during SARs the majority of KA pilots offered to take unpaid leave but only a small proportion got it as KA did not alter their operation to any great extent. Maybe it was 25%, mostly A scale obviously, but you really need to get your facts straight.

You wish, you poor sadmaninhk.

I know there is a lot of pent up anger towards many things “Fragrant Harbor” but let’s not confuse the issue of CX of old vs new, Hong Kong old vs new. This is a bloody disgrace no matter how you twist it. How many COO, CFO, CEO types are getting unpaid leave? My guess, ZERO. How many upper management types are getting unpaid leave? My guess, ZERO. Yes this is a serious situation but looking from the outside in it’s nothing but a greedy money grab by CX laying waste to their poor crews and employees. These people still have families to support which now becomes untenable. Not the same for the previously mentioned “those in charge”. I hope CX is wrought with defections with those finding other streams of income so when it comes time to call them back, nobody picks up the phone.