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Originally Posted by unitedabx
(Post 10236941)
You are quoting a different avaition world and by the way looked what happened to UA.
You are also very naieve. Captains and C&T'ers are NOT the leaders of the pilot group. In theory the President of the HKAOA is and in the past C&T'ers followed the guidance given by the AOA. There is no guidance these days so the C&T'ers do their own thing. In 2005, 98% of the C&T'ers were members of the AOA. Today, it is less than 10%. I can tell from your posts that you haven't been in this industry very long and certainly not in Hong Kong. Open your eyes. As far as UA is concerned, stick to the effectiveness of their job action. It was a success and done so without any guidance from ALPA. If you all are going to just sit back and expect the other guy to do the heavy lifting for you. Than the CX pilots will soon find that they are the lowest paid WB pilots in the world. That is based on cost of living etc. |
Originally Posted by DropKnee
(Post 10237419)
I have been in this industry for 29 years. If your waiting for the AOA to give you directions, you will be very disappointed. Each individual has to decide for themselves. As far as UA is concerned, stick to the effectiveness of their job action. It was a success and done so without any guidance from ALPA. If you all are going to just sit back and expect the other guy to do the heavy lifting for you. Than the CX pilots will soon find that they are the lowest paid WB pilots in the world. That is based on cost of living etc. |
80K USD/month???? utter bullshit
Originally Posted by Air Profit
(Post 10237458)
Hmmm, RH seems to want to convince us all that we are grossly overpaid. Quite the joke isn't it? My Delta captain friend who is making $80K usd per month at the moment would be quite bemused by our CEO's comments. What a debacle this airline has become.
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Ok, if you say so....
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I’d use some caution in trying to compare raw salary numbers across different countries or even different parts of the same country. What you need to make in order to have a decent standard of living depends completely on where you live. Even in the US it might take a couple of hundred of thousand dollars to live in SFO at an equivalent standard of living to someone in La Crosse, WI who is making a quarter of that. Which is is why many commute. If you base and live in HKG that number is way huge. Insanely enough — but not surprisingly — CX has been about as hostile as it could be toward commuters (and well below the privileges of many other majors—and even some regionals ) — as well as basings — which is the one aspect that enables some folks to keep working here. You can’t make this stuff up. Stuff up ..... I guess that about says it all. |
“The typical United Airlines Airline Pilot salary is $171,280. Airline Pilot salaries at United Airlines can range from $25,400 - $350,000. This estimate is based upon 20 United Airlines Airline Pilot salary report(s) provided by employees or estimated based upon statistical methods.9 Jul 2018” top of scale goes goes a very long way in the US |
Checked in with a Delta friend this morning. Yes, some (not many to be fair, only very senior C and T) are making $80k some months. In fact, the number has been even higher in some cases. Regardless, does anyone here at CX doubt that we are now grossly underpaid, at ALL levels? Didn't think so.
This airline has stripped the value from our careers. This current negotiation will be the ONLY opportunity to rectify this. If we fail (and I mean 'we'), there will probably never be as good an opportunity. If you are planning on leaving, then please don't vote in such a way that you hurt those who will remain. Every one of us needs to appreciate that the only way to go through life is with integrity, loyalty and commitment. We are far better than our adversaries in management, both professionally and personally. Don't let them destroy not only your career, but your integrity, self-worth and character. This IS the great battle of our time, and everyone needs to support the common good. We can't afford to lose this. There will never be another opportunity to re-establish our worth, professional status and hopes for our careers and families. Is it not perhaps time we finally held a strike vote, and gave our association the nuclear option that has long been needed? Stand strong. (ps, even 737 captains at Southwest are making $40K/mo usd in many cases). |
Originally Posted by controlledrest
(Post 10235947)
The company doesn't give a crap about experience. The cheaper the better.
One day a CX aeroplane will crash. Blame will be placed on the pilots (anyone expect HKG CAD to have the slightest clue as to crash investigation). The real cause will be the management who set the policy and the Check and Trainers who implement it. Foot stamping and letter writing only makes the C&Ts more culpable. Set up is this year. |
Stumbled into this on YT : www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPJjw68RI2w go at 2'30'' and I was worried with R/T ability for a wide-body F/O. I can feel the pain for the captains having to endure such situations.
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Originally Posted by BlunderBus
(Post 10238580)
80K USD/month???? utter bull****
From the sister Airline Pilot Central forums an American Airlines pilot comments: You guys need to pull your head out of your proverbial a$s prior to section 6. Go ask a Delta A350 pilot. They have FOs crediting over 260 hours of pay credit for the month. Green slip. Green slip with conflict. Do the math. Apparently they have some captains that broke 100k in a month.https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/i...er_offline.gif Details of the Deltoid bidding techniques in this APC thread: https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/d...-captains.html U.S. mainline pilots are raking in the dough these days after the airline bankruptcies of a decade ago. :ok: |
Work rules. So important. Gotta love em. For those who don't know you have no idea what you're missing. |
You just hit the nail on the head CXex: almost none of the current CX pilots have worked for a real airline with REAL work rules. They for the most part have no idea what they are talking about. In fact, they don't even have a datum point in their experience to relate just how bad CX's work rules really are. That is the great tragedy of this airline: it has no base of experience inside of itself to advocate for proper working conditions because there is no understanding of what needs to be done to fix it. If CX pilots understood how much control US pilots have over their lives they would be in tears. Even pilots on a regional roster flying 737's manage 15+ days off a month, with easy commuting and flexible bidding that suits the pilot, not the company.
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...."large sum of money"....? umm....thought we were talking about CX here Frank? (the "total abuse" bit was accurate however!)
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Originally Posted by BlunderBus
(Post 10238580)
80K USD/month???? utter bull****
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Geez Frank, lighten up. And it's not about me, i'll be gone soon enough. It IS about the 25-45yr olds that are at risk of wasting a good part of their careers chasing something that left long ago. An objective review of the past 20 years should tell anyone that there can never be stability or financial security working for the Swires. If you want an airline "career", then choose anything other than CX.
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Straight out of deltas contract $370 an hour for the most senior widebody captains. Blocked for 75 a month. exceptionally with penalties and double rates I can believe $60 k in a rare month but $80k ?!!! Utter crap ... and that what my delta pals say too. |
Blunder, you are making a fool of yourself (and not sure why you are so worked up about the subject?). Certain Delta Captains are making that amount, and more. You can believe it or not, but I know it to be fact. Find a different topic, as your absurd enmity against the subject is just plain odd.
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Originally Posted by BlunderBus
(Post 10252527)
Straight out of deltas contract $370 an hour for the most senior widebody captains. Blocked for 75 a month. exceptionally with penalties and double rates I can believe $60 k in a rare month but $80k ?!!! Utter crap ... and that what my delta pals say too. I decided to ask a friend that is still working the answer is yes to $ 80000. Here is how . Delta pilots have the ability to drop their full schedule and then pickup new trips . A few of the more contract savvy individuals on the A350 have done so and then picked up open double time trips filling the month that way. . The system is not without risk as you could end up with zero flying in your month but the A350 is a new aircraft at DAL and training is so backed up extra unfilled trips are available every day . |
Originally Posted by filejw
(Post 10252602)
Mr Blunder, I decided to ask a friend that is still working the answer is yes to $ 80000. Here is how . Delta pilots have the ability to drop their full schedule and then pickup new trips . A few of the more contract savvy individuals on the A350 have done so and then picked up open double time trips filling the month that way. . The system is not without risk as you could end up with zero flying in your month but the A350 is a new aircraft at DAL and training is so backed up extra unfilled trips are available every day . Southwest is kinda similar kinda not but the key for all of them is an owned roster with rigs, paid reserve, and the ability to swap trips autonomously. And REAL work rules. Two way street. Could be similar with a full up CMP with all modules. But it won’t be. Because the company would rather impose and hose. So it will see the natural result of min productivity at max cost. In a real system you have thousands of pilots helping solve your rostering problems in an incentive based environment with benefit to all. What CX will do is akin to a centrally planned economy which has failed every time it’s been attempted. |
Originally Posted by Slasher1
(Post 10252668)
...... the key for all of them is an owned roster with rigs, paid reserve, and the ability to swap trips autonomously. And REAL work rules. Two way street. Could be similar with a full up CMP with all modules. But it won’t be. Because the company would rather impose and hose. So it will see the natural result of min productivity at max cost. In a real system you have thousands of pilots helping solve your rostering problems in an incentive based environment with benefit to all. What CX will do is akin to a centrally planned economy which has failed every time it’s been attempted. |
Originally Posted by controlledrest
(Post 10253297)
100% correct. A full implementation with real rules is the best way to roster. It is how successful airlines do it. CX will only use their version as an automated pineapple insertion machine without any lube. CX know best.
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It never fails to make me smile how quickly people here rise to become offensive and launch a personal attack. I’m not wound up over anything but have an aversion to bull****. I live in the USA and meet almost daily over dinner and drinks with 3 delta 12 year widebody captains... my neighbours in fact. I put your $80,000 a month statement to them and my posted response are their words not mine :) I looked at their pay scales, contracts and rostering practices as we have discussed it in detail many times since our crap CMP was cooked up. Regardless of who gets paid what you’re not going to get closer to the truth by being offensive so in closing kiss my hairy ass 😘 oh yeah that was for ATY :)) Awaiting a pithy response Its my thread and I’m not sharing so there.😜 |
BB. Stick with your story, and your animated reaction to the statement. Regardless of the "number", it is fair to say that most pilots at US majors make more than most pilots at CX. And many CX pilots know Delta pilots, live in the US, and have as much if not more info than you. Pithy enough for you?
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Not bad but I was expecting a little more abuse :)) we DO agree on the comparative salary remarks ..I’m actually embarrassed to say who I work for now when asked. Never thought good old cucumber sandwich could be driven to such an ignominious end. I’m sure the assholes responsible over the years will spend their twilight years slapping each other on their collective backs over G and T’s while punting the poodle off the balcony. |
On those comments at least, we completely agree. :ok: (love the poodle comment btw!)
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Yes, cannot argue at all with that synopsis. And I agree with AP, poodle comment best of day !!!
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Originally Posted by Slasher1
(Post 10252668)
Yes. But with the caveat that SOMEONE picks up the trips consistent with the work rules written. This can result in high pay while also driving high efficiency. Some scam aspects are possible, but coming to a solution is all a part of good negotiations. Southwest is kinda similar kinda not but the key for all of them is an owned roster with rigs, paid reserve, and the ability to swap trips autonomously. And REAL work rules. Two way street. Could be similar with a full up CMP with all modules. But it won’t be. Because the company would rather impose and hose. So it will see the natural result of min productivity at max cost. In a real system you have thousands of pilots helping solve your rostering problems in an incentive based environment with benefit to all. What CX will do is akin to a centrally planned economy which has failed every time it’s been attempted. |
Perhaps Mr. Campy needs to have a look at the Transasia ARR accident. Why did it happen and meditate on it. |
We budgeted for a ‘hull’ loss |
Just like we budgeted for 300 resignations |
Be wary using the expression "we've budgeted for a hull loss" without due regard. Being prepared for any foreseeable eventuality, despite every reasonable effort to prevent it, is only prudent.
If you can get a Swire manager to respond to a question such as: "What will happen if the undeniable reduction in the levels of experience and expertise on Cathay flight decks that your flight crew personnel policies are bringing about results in a hull loss?" with an answer like "we've budgeted for a hull loss" then you have a story. |
Just got word that after my last Sydney trip where both the FO and SO attended their final selection phase at Qantas Headquarters ( conveniently 500m close the Stamford Plaza Hotel where the CX overnight ) They have both been accepted and are now in the holding pool. Congratulations to both women and good luck with your careers.
Yes both very capable women pilots, exactly who CX are targeting to recruit and keep. But both choosing to move. |
I can say on EVERY flight now at least one in four is going. No bs...that’s a lot more than the 3% they tell us are leaving. Sure they’ll attract the very young inexperienced crew but what’s the point if they circulate out again when they get a few hours and are marketable?? |
The hold file at QF is out to 18 months now. A lot can happen in that time.
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Jetstar oz and nz air nz virgin all looking The money in HK just isn’t enough anymore. The nett income is worse after monthly costs than almost anywhere. And with conditions changing every year along with a lying company who constantly attack staff there just isn’t any stability at all. Ask anyone here if they’re better off than when they joined.. it’s a near vertical reduction in contracts. When you look back in 10 years don’t say you weren’t warned. |
The goal is obviously to attempt to feed as many people as possible in under POS 18 while retaining enough people such that the place can still operate in the mean time. Using POS 18 as a baseline and essentially having frozen or steadily declining conditions for the more experienced people it needs (under current COS) until it builds up enough qualified staffing under the new terms. IF this can be done. For experienced/qualified folks here (older folks riding it out until retirement, younger to mid-age folks who will be continuing in the industry looking for a new job they haven't found yet, and younger folks too dumb to realize they need to be looking for a new job), they'll face contract attrition via inflation and whatever impositions can be gotten away with while still staving off a mass exodus. Or at least a bigger mass exodus than they can lie about to their bosses and get away with.
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The QF hold file may be out to 18mths for some, but with the QF stated and vigorously supported diversity and inclusion policies, some prospective talent will be hired before others! |
Ineffective in contract negotiations. Would it be better if the HKAOA changed it's focus and became an active employment agency for CX pilots looking to leave. Office staff could assist with applications and CV writing/printing and this new agency could offer airlines entire crews as required. Much better use of the monthly dues than the farce of negotiating when hopelessly out matched.
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Originally Posted by unitedabx
(Post 10256089)
Ineffective in contract negotiations. Would it be better if the HKAOA changed it's focus and became an active employment agency for CX pilots looking to leave. Office staff could assist with applications and CV writing/printing and this new agency could offer airlines entire crews as required. Much better use of the monthly dues than the farce of negotiating when hopelessly out matched.
But that wouldn't be in good faith 😂 and that would make Cathay unhappy the union wouldn't dare do that to cx |
Originally Posted by Avinthenews
(Post 10256098)
But that wouldn't be in good faith 😂 and that would make Cathay unhappy the union wouldn't dare do that to cx
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