Letter from Greg Hughes (Service Delivery Mgr) to HKAOA
 

Dear Greg,

Just read your April 10th letter to the HKAOA Chairman. You rabbit on and on about the need for “both parties” to be open to concessions, that there has to be “give and take” from both sides (and we know that in your mind, that ONLY means pilot concessions). Let me help clarify a few things for you. The pilots are done “giving”. That is all you and your ilk have expected from the early 1990’s.

Obviously, you and your management cohorts are still living in the 1990’s. You still seem to believe that you have the upper hand. Well, unless you have figured out a way to operate an airline without pilots, you no longer have the upper hand. We do.

The pilots of the airline have concluded, almost to a person that this job is no longer worth staying for. Nearly every flight I operate has crew that are either: a) applying for a new job, b) have already interviewed for a new job, c) are awaiting a course date for their new job, d) have already given notice for their new job, or e) retiring early as they can’t stand any longer their old job.

You and your kind have pushed your cart just that one inch too far over the line, and the result is that you have enabled most of us to clear away any cobwebs of doubt we may have had as to whether or not we needed to seek employment elsewhere. In case you haven't noticed, most of the worlds airlines are short of pilots, and becoming more so every day. We have plenty of options.

Every time you or AT or RH make any utterances that contradict our well reasoned and insistent improvement to pay, housing, staff travel, medical, retirement etc, you simply ensure that another 100 or so pilots sit up and say to themselves “ I’m leaving”.

So you go ahead and keep pretending that you can drive the pilots of this airline deeper into penury. You can then move onto your next “service delivery” item, which will be figuring out how the aircraft are going to move from A to B without the very people who you are striving so hard to screw over. Good luck with that, please let us know how that turns out.

+1

I’d write less but I’m concerned that you (Greg) may interpret the post as an isolated opinion from a disgruntled employee. I have experienced the same emotions and witnessed the same actions on every flight (no exceptions) I’ve operated I past 4 months.

Plus two +2

Absolutely +3.

HKAOA, ignore, ignore, ignore, ignore, withdraw, withdraw, withdraw. The useful life of that sort of language is over. It’s disingenuous nonsense.

+4

MMole my thoughts exactly! It is time for give and take. They took our 13th month, so we want that back. In fact, the 13th month is contractual over at Dragon, so parity with Dragon’s COS is the non-negotiable starting point of any new “good faith bargaining “.

And totally agree with Bang...at the first sign of their old negotiating tricks, walk away....our leverage only increases with time.

+2

Let's be realistic. For the HKAOA, the success of any talks is proportionate to leverage. It will have nothing to do with an intellectual debate or any altruristic desire by the company to "right" all the previous "wrongs". For whatever reason the HKAOA's leverage from CC/TB has deminished and we are now looking at resignation rates to generate leverage.

Despite all the rumours about resignations, what I see as a "line driver" is a relatively stable roster on the 777 and Airbus fleets. The freight operation has an inherent instability and whether the 747 roster is "unstable", I am in no position to comment. I say all this by drawing a comparison to 2015 when I saw;

1. The occasional aircraft parked (sometimes with pax boarded and waiting for crew).
2. Pilots grounded from hitting 900 hours or not completing regulatory training.
3. Big phone arounds by Crew Control to crew aircraft.
4. The Company forming "working groups" in an attempt to stabilise the roster.
5. A lack of reserve coverage.

From my vantage as a line driver, I presently see none of those 5 things happening to any extent and certainly not to the extent I saw in 2015. Now, we will know in the next few weeks if it was true that resignations spiked in the first 3 months of the year. Would the loss of 90 pilots brings the HKAOA leverage?, I honestly don't know. However, I see nothing in GH's letter indicating that the Board is putting money on the table. Perhaps I am reading too much into GH's letter, but I read it as any deal must be "give and take" self-funding. Is that what we want?

I accept that I don't have any inside info, but what I do know is that you only go into negotiations when your leverage is at the maximum. As a line driver, it appears our leverage is not at maximum and rather than waste time and distract the members, the GC would be wise to return to the huddle and maximise the effect of CC/TB and then hope resignation rates do the rest.

Interestingly, we again seem to be heading into talks in May which is very adjacent to the next GC election and I very much hope we will not see the rushed chaos we saw in 2016.

Bottomline, unless the GC is sure the company is putting money on the table, walk away and focus on building leverage and enter talks at a later date from a position of strength, not desperation or exasperation.

Notice to Darryl and Co: note - "at the first sign of their old negotiating tricks, walk away." WALK AWAY. Have nothing to do with any further harm to the pilot group. Let the company do what they want, and we will react accordingly. Most of my colleagues know exactly what they are planning on doing, LEAVE (and that is even before any negative negotiation outcome).

Liam, you call dozens of cancelled flights a 'stable' roster (as one example, they have cancelled over a 100 LAX flights over the past 6 months, and that is just one port). The company can keep cancelling services prior to roster production, so to you the roster seems "stable". In reality, the company is collapsing from the inside out. No airline can survive for long when their pilots start leaving. CX will find that a truism.

Liam, the only reason you don't see the types of events happening (at least on the surface) is simply because, as MM just highlighted, they are shrinking the task. You could have only a 100 pilots left in CX, but if you cut the roster to two flights a day, you would still have a "stable" roster. A station manager from one of our main ports (not mentioning for confidentiality reasons) told me, and I quote: "HK has told me that they are reducing flying from our port because of a SHORTAGE of PILOTS".

The wheels are coming off, and this is the last gasp of arrogance and self-conceit from our management. Soon, (and my favourite quote from Gladiator), "the time for honouring yourself will soon be at an end". No better quote can describe what is coming for our management.

This is the time to wait.

Go fishing, go diving, enjoy life.

When they are ready they will show the money and conditions. No need to jump at someone not ready to make a deal.

No reason to be in the same room with someone who ONLY wants to take something away from you. They have no intention on giving anything. Sheps advice is appropriate, walk away and enjoy your life. Better yet, spend your time focusing on obtaining a job at an airline that will value you and treat you with respect.

Can we also get a confirmation from Darryl and the GC that they are NOT going to be negotiating ANY concession. Anything less than that is unacceptable. If CX management can't get their heads around that, then better to not enter into any negotiation at all. Let management dare to unilaterally attack us further. I guess one pilot a day leaving is not yet enough...

The only way to ensure that we give no concessions is a member motion not allowing the NC to negotiate ANY CONCESSIONS... otherwise we might end up with a TA that not many people want but gets voted through in the end because 50% +1 have had enough.

Sorry Liam G but they are shrinking the task as others have said..i.e. they are hiding the slide that they have manufactured.....they dont want to let it slip. But its subtle...suddenly the daily 24 hour layover on your roster to whatever long haul destination now is 48 or even 72 that month and we all go wee some time off for once...but thats happening in lots of ports. We only see us and a few mates not the bigger picture.

Its interesting that more leave slots are coming available.....

They dont want to show us they are hurting and they sure as hell dont want to show shareholders. So they will manufacture us into a dispute blame us further and impose...and those that hadnt followed the rest getting ready to jump will be moving on and there ends Cathay.

Oh, please "impose". I am leaving anyway, so it will be enjoyable to put the boot in one last time before I go.

Impose? Impose how? My FO on my mid-week flight just received his course date at QF. His two best friends at CX are awaiting their course dates (they have already interviewed ). He told me that the word on the street in Sydney is that there is an ever increasing stream of CX pilots coming through the doors for interviews. Applications alone are in the multi-100's range.

That is only ONE airline. I imagine the flow to BA and other airlines is equally impressive. A french FO told me that he is about to leave for AF, and that most of the french pilots are planning on the same. No one wants to be the last person to join the new seniority list.

And so it goes. So, let CX "impose" something. Epic own-goal that will prove. :D

I suspected they were shrinking the task, but again I don't see it. Shrinking the task is the only realistic explanation, unless we accept management's assertions there's indeed no pilot shortage.

The 4th LAX and 5th LHR were always marginal in terms of load, so I am not surprised they get cancelled on occasion. However, I still see the daily flights going daily and the double daily going double-daily. We don't see a Ryanair scenario where flights are cancelled and money is returned and a public outcry occurs. If the task Is being shrunk, it must be on flights that are not heavily booked.

As for the notion of hiding information from the shareholders, 85% of the shareholders are Swire, Air China and Qatar. Given the people who would be doing the hiding are Swire employees and Air China has their people on the Board and Qatar is a competitor, I cannot see how anything can be hidden from them. The managers/BoardShareholders are really the same people (left hand hiding from right hand).

If they are indeed shrinking the task to match the number of pilots, then it must be assumed they believe it is a better economic solution than putting money in the table. If that decision has been made, then a pilot shortage gives us no leverage, which again supports the idea of hesitating to enter negotiations.

There is of course another explanation and that is the Company is playing the long game and is just trying to wear us down and they can see the Chairman and half the GC are near the end of their 2 year term and has sensed the GC is fatigued to the extent the GC is prepared to entertain a limited wealth-redistribution type deal. A follow on from the HPE debacle, which again was a GC coming near the end of their term.

Perhaps Brokeidiot is not such an idiot and perhaps it's time the members gave the GC some clear guidance... No concessions.....

Liam. As another contributor told you, as one example, LAX has cancelled hundreds of flights over the past several months. One port.

It's not about "hiding" anything from shareholders (as if CX cares about the shareholder). They are quietly managing the operation to cope with the shortage of pilots, the sickness rate and the instability that a normal schedule would trigger. Are you suggesting that a pilot a day on average leaving (and that is set to increase) is a sustainable business model?

Regardless, the truth of the situation will play out over many months. I am confident that this airline has seen its day, and a prosperous and stable career can only be had at another employer.

Liam,

As others have said they are definitely shrinking the roster. I recently looked at taking the Family down to JNB in May for our holidays. The daily service is running at 4 or 5 flights a week over the time I looked at.

I suspect there is a lot of this going on around the network to mask the issues.

Shrinking the airline is how we win apparently.

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

Please do not think we haven't experienced similar emotions. Candidly airlines the world over are run by the same 'cookie cutter' MBA cost accountants thus it is everywhere. Bolt it to an adversarial IR/HR model and you have the modern dysfunctional and totally disconnected Corporate.

Having seen how these departments of vultures operate, we can assure you of one profound commonality; they absolutely rely on emotional responses. Good or bad they can rate the effectiveness. What their templates do not function with as they plan expansions of strategy or retreat from, is indifference.

Cathay Pilots have a hard won reputation. You collectively are way above their station. They know this.

As a wise person once remarked to a younger version of Rated De "Don't try to wrestle pigs, you get really dirty and pigs love it."

Practice indifference, quiet and dignified and they will not know next what to do in order to justify, what is from personal insight, a soulless and pathetic vocation.

Tiger321,

I see what you mean. I didn't spend too much time on cathaypacific.com, but yes it seems through May, June and July the JNB service is shaved back to 5 or 6 per week. I think you have to go back to the 747 days for anything other than a daily JNB service.

However, sometimes they redeploy aircraft to more profitable routes. Paris is an example of this. It chops and changes from daily to double daily. That doesn't mean less crew usage, just means the aircraft are used elsewhere.

PS. Not good news for the Saffa commuters.

I like your thinking Rated De

The NC/GC will be wasting our time if they present a TA with any concessions. It will fail, many are just too far into this debacle to accept any concessions and actually expect gains.
There is no need to hurry into meaningful negotiations, play them along as they have demonstrated to us before. Delay, prevaricate and deceive are tactics that we too can use.

Just had a very interesting dinner with someone who shed some light on where all this is going. In short, it's a last attempt grab at reducing operating costs to make the margin between costs and profit as large as possible. This will enable a sale at the highest price possible to whatever mainland or other investor/airline that will then inherit the disgruntled and fleeing pilots. They have planned this to a "T". From the hedge to rape the cash from the war chest. To the "perceived" crisis that enabled shrinking management by a third and widening the gap between costs and revenue. This profit when realized, will drive the sale price to it's Max. All this, while the foundations shake from the instability and unrest that lay beneath the balance sheet. Within a few years swire will be nothing but a memory. So any concessions given will result in no repayment or promises kept. The trainers are training the new cost base that the new owner will expect will be the base line from this point forward. If shrinking the airline is what's needed to achieve the same profit margin and artificially raise the sale price then that is what will happen. Any concessions pilots give will only further play into this plan. You have been warned... Don't just walk away.... Run.

There is another option ....... just hold the line!!
They are past masters at the delay, prevaricate, misdirect and deceive method of pirate bargaining 101.
They want us to crumble.
But they need us to fly.

This is not a time for concessions, but instead it really is a time for significant modern improvements to the package. Let's not live in with the past. Flying 72hrs and 5-4-3 are long gone, and perhaps outdated. We do need to move with the times.

We are having to be accepting of the un-lubed JCP.
But Swires are now having to deal with an increasingly unwilling workforce who have been pushed too far. The consolidation of anti-concession feeling has now worked against them.

We want the airline to succeed. But in a mutually beneficial way.
Time for Swires to reach into those deep pockets, watch out for the plague of moths as the wallet is opened, they'll hate us for it, but $$$$ is now the only way.

Hold the line! And that means all you guys on the GC too!!

RAT Management - do CX now look towards the possibility of the sale to and absorption by such operators as China Southern? (China Southern just an example). Re paint all the aircraft, dump all reference to Cathay Pacific in Ts and Cs, SOPs, Ops manuals, uniforms etc. etc. HKG just becomes another base, existing, (remaining) crew to be offered system wide basing on standard China Southern contracts, judging by what some have said on this forum wouldn't this be an overall improvement? If the HR department are on the move could this be a sign?


EDIT: Or, LongTimeInCX, Swire could just sell up and join the exodus? The difference being, Swire will have the money.

Never Ever Forget History - or a Leopard Never Changes its Spots
 

Dear Cx Colleagues - worrying times I know but re-read this post and you know what to expect.

https://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harb...ry-lesson.html

Good luck to you all

Captain Boers. Not really worrying at all. You only "worry" when you "care". As nearly none of us care anymore, and most are already well on their way to their next employer, whatever actions CX management can take are practically neutered already. You can't worry people who have already "checked out". The management can set off all the fireworks they have, it won't matter. As a matter of fact, I hope they do. The entertainment value will be priceless. :ok:

In answer to the question about pilots being better off if absorbed by (for example) China southern...I think on money it will be swings and roundabouts. The only plus might be options to take a base. But security for the long term and things like housing/schooling/medical will all be erroded. You talk to anyone that's doing those contacts, it's not a choice and the enjoyment is no where to be seen, unless you want out of Hong Kong yesterday. Don't think a new owner will want to give more than this lot. It will only be a change and a change for the worse. If you can find something better take it, for where this is heading is only going to be worse. The CMP will be the first step on the road to unbearable and not worth it any more... Hold the line or else. It would help if the trainers assisted in putting on the brakes to force the tie break into our favor.

A base working for China Southern? Big queue of expats based in CAN already waiting for one having been stitched up by the agencies I hear. You're better off going back to Europe/USA/Canada/Australia/NZ. Money isn't everything.

Not sure why the big dissertation on contract companies. Nearly all of the CX pilots who are interested in leaving have plenty of opportunities at the worlds majors. The contract companies are going to have the same problem CX is having: pilots don't need to put up with the bull:mad: anymore. Bye bye CX.

Both FO's from my flight this weekend leaving in the next 3 months. They said that QF is looking to take multiple hundreds of pilots, so as to hoover up the Aussie license holders before the competition does. Joyce has authorised their recruiters to over staff, as it is cheaper to do that than run out of pilots and park aircraft. Are you listening Anna.....tick tock. (to keep track, last 6 long haul flights, 10 pilots confirmed they are leaving, 2 applied and awaiting interviews).

That's how an AIRLINE operates, not a bottling/shipping/real-estate manager looking at their next (unrelated) job.

They look into the future...................................................... ..........................

Easiest way to see whether they cancelled flight in advance?

Ask the cabin crew for their trump flight list. They get given that list of the unusual 6days LAX, 6 days SFO or NYC etc patterns so they could bid for it few months in advance....that would give a reasonable indication of how many flights have been cancelled as the company isn't gonna give the cabin crew a extended stay unless they absolutely have to right?

What the heck is a Trump Flight list?

And dare I ask why the pilots don’t get this??!

surely you know the cabin crew get rewarded for not calling in sick after a certain period of time (yes this is not a good practice for our industry but somehow companies in hk do reward staff either in cash or whatever as a reward for showing up on time etc).

And their reward is called a trump card which they can bid for 'special' patterned flights and they get that like 2 or 3 months in advance.... so yes, you know that standard crewing pattern we see for the next month, it only shows us the standard, but if you want a once off or once a week special flight like a short holiday in LAX or SFO or wherever it may be, the cabin crew do know at least couple of months in advance as opposed to us getting it by luck while the cabin crew gets rewarded for whatever they did previously....one eg, there was a 100 hours layover in Rome during Christmas last year, the cabin crew would know that like back in Oct and may be even earlier so they can bid for it, but because we don't even know those pattern will exist so there's no way for us to request those either, may be the company doesn't want us to know how many flights they cancelled well in advance :rolleyes::rolleyes:.....

Or if you're bored like I am, just go to cx.com and search the timetable.

In May, only 3 days out of the entire month you find SYD with all 4 flights operating, the other 28 days only 3 flights. Similar cancellations for LHR.

Trump Flight List ??
 

What reward do flight crew get for being conscientious and not calling in sick ?? I will tell you, SFA !!!!

What does our CAD do about all these cancelled flights ?? In Europe they fine the **** out of airlines for playing that game.. CX has blocked all the slots with "daily" and then randomly cancel flights - other airlines should sue the hell out of them.. CX has lots of experience in court for these types of scams.. One place where they do have lots of relevant experience.

A joke of a company run by a board of mis-directors. How many do you think have an MBA or better yet, a degree in a relevant subject to what they are charged to manage... Joke.

Hyg

Well, well, well...no, I didn’t know this. But why am I not surprised? For the past 25 years, ever since the infamous “commitment days” in the early 90’s, and up to the non payment of the 13th month bonus to pilots this past December, it seems that the pilots have been singled out as unworthy of consideration in one form or another. Sad, but obviously true.

Case in point: I met my cabin crew recently in the hotel lobby of a regional outport. The FO and I arrived the previous night after a max duty day battling storms and Chinese ATC, with an integrated pattern through Hong Kong, culminating in a minimum rest period of 10 hours in the hotel...

The cabin crew informed us that they had been in the hotel for two nights, with 48 hours rest! Kind of says it all, doesn’t it?