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Contract pilots at CX
SAA talking to CX and Turkish about 3-5 year contracts for FOs and possibly CNs on 330 and 747 fleets. Schooling and provident fund provided (no mention of housing, funnily).And light blue touch paper....
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Dear Anna. Please go ahead and throw that match on the pool of petrol lying in front of you. The conflagration you will start will not be put out until nearly every current pilot has left. Go ahead, make my day....
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I called this a few months ago. You guys let this slide. Than your wasting your money on a union.
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Originally Posted by Trafalgar
(Post 10094811)
Dear Anna. Please go ahead and throw that match on the pool of petrol lying in front of you. The conflagration you will start will not be put out until nearly every current pilot has left. Go ahead, make my day....
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There never was a TTW (other than for management bonuses). The airline has entered a death spiral, and it will be interesting to see when the final realisation of that fact finally sinks into the mindset of the majority of crew. Most have been making plans to leave, and i now suspect that the recent rejection of further bases, the admission by AT that they aren't increasing pay or housing for the junior pilots (competetive package!) and the general complete lack of acknowledgement of our concerns means that the exodus is now unstoppable. The long story of CX is nearing it's end, and nothing but ashes will remain. Tragic.
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The big issue is DEC. If that happens, then the charade that this is a 'career' airline will be over (if it already isn't...). Let's see what absurdity AT comes up with next, but if it's that, then truly this place will be in flames.
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Would love to see Turkish pass a line check.
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so just because someone doesn't come from your neck of the woods they are automatically a bad pilot?
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Johannesburg Roadshow
I've seen a CX flyer for a SAA endorsed pilot recruitment roadshow at Airways Park next week 28/29th but can't figure out how to post it here. They are apparently laying off 10% of their pilots.
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Honestly guys, you need to take it way easier.
There's always been these types of crew exchange between companies, it's not exactly contract pilots recruited by an agency from the free market. It's happened for decades in most (even legacy) airlines. So relax, enjoy your old contracts (for the lucky ones) and don't believe everything you hear. |
Originally Posted by bringbackthe80s
(Post 10095023)
Honestly guys, you need to take it way easier.
There's always been these types of crew exchange between companies, it's not exactly contract pilots recruited by an agency from the free market. It's happened for decades in most (even legacy) airlines. So relax, enjoy your old contracts (for the lucky ones) and don't believe everything you hear. |
How the AOA handles this will be a defining moment. Certainly in terms of its future.
Before we even discuss possible contract/temp bases in JNB or even a sympathetic commuting contract for those potentially at the bottom of a 3000 seniority list, are we really going to allow them to join the pax fleet whilst our Long suffering freighter guys languish? |
Originally Posted by Trafalgar
(Post 10094857)
The big issue is DEC. If that happens, then the charade that this is a 'career' airline will be over (if it already isn't...). Let's see what absurdity AT comes up with next, but if it's that, then truly this place will be in flames.
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Send us your tired, your pissed off, your huddled masses yearning to breathe hk’s fresh air. The grass couldn’t be greener and the air couldn’t be cleaner.
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Excellent summary CR!
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Soooo, Curtain. After reading that, I can only conclude that AT has just been a bit misunderstood, and the company really has our best interests at heart. There is NO doubt that this is a career airline. Come one, come all. (seriously, that was epic, and lays bare just how awful, manipulative, venal, malicious and destructive our management are. Hard to believe it's come to this place, considering the wonderful employer I joined back in the 80's. Tragedy). Why is anyone with any other opportunity considering tying their career hopes and those of their families to a management just described by your brilliant post? Anyone who can leave had better do so as quickly as they can.
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This is pilot and union busting in its purest form.
Any group who allows this to happen to them doomed. I think the smart ones realize the situation and are leaving. The group that’s too old to go. Best of luck you make it out. The others, well you know the saying. You can’t help stupid. |
Originally Posted by Avinthenews
(Post 10094955)
Cracks me up they’d rather crap on the currently employed pilots and let them leave than fix any of the issues!!! I know... let’s hire a bunch of ‘new’ guys and piss them off too... Pretty soon it will be the last ditch bitch of a job for the world of unemployed flyers. How can they honestly think anyone would come here in their 30’s and 40’s and be able to afford to live?? |
Misses the point sadly. AT and RH have determined to turn CX into the employer of choice for the worlds pilot 'refugees'. Effectively, it will become a satellite airline of SAA, and due to the circumstances in their home country, pilots from there will grit their teeth and put up with the bs that will come their way from this management. Pilots from the suspect countries will always at least give CX a try, as their options back home are no better. That is what this airline now represents, a home for those who's home countries are unlivable. If YOU come from a country that has a stable society, and good employers, you had better get yourself on those seniority lists as soon as possible. That is the one Achilles heel of CX, they can hire from any country they want, thereby undermining everyone already employed here. At least back in Aus/NZ/Can/US/UK etc, they can only hire from within their own countries, which limits their airlines from abusing you in ways CX finds perfectly acceptable to subject you to. Get out now, the writing is on the wall. CX is done as a career employer.
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CR, well summarized. That is so clear and the perspective obvious when it's all on one page.
Take note, wannabes. This place is a toxic wasteland that will absolutely drain your enthusiasm and rob your soul. |
Before all of you deride the pilots of SAA trying to get out . Just read what is happening in SA right now , land grabs without compensation , farm murders almost daily .violent crime is out of control , and to top it all SAA is trying to shrink its way to profitability . If you ever believe that’s a workable solution.
It has been mis-managed by totally incompetent management for years , draw any parallels that you want. I can understand why any pilot from SA offered a job would probably take it despite the conditions especially if they hold a SA passport with limited options of being able to emigrate to another country |
Nobody is 'deriding' the SA pilots. I personally like the South Africans very much. The real issue is that our management is using them, and other geographically unfortunate persons to undermine all the other pilots at CX. Further, there is strong rumour that she is about to offer a 'commuting contract' to them, before any such thing is offered to the long-suffering pilots already employed here. This airline is done as far as a career is concerned. Well done to our greedy management in destroying one of the worlds great airlines. :D
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The most important aspect to realise about this issue is this: CX can hire from anywhere in the world they choose. There will always be some unfortunates who they will hire, to expressly undermine and cripple those pilots already employed. You will NEVER have a period of industrial peace in CX (I've experienced that very situation for over 20+ yrs now). You will always find your meager conditions under attack, and there will never be a positive outcome. Conflict and stress is all you can count on if you stay at CX. If you can leave, do so asap. CX is finished.
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Originally Posted by oriental flyer
(Post 10095850)
Before all of you deride the pilots of SAA trying to get out . Just read what is happening in SA right now , land grabs without compensation , farm murders almost daily .violent crime is out of control , and to top it all SAA is trying to shrink its way to profitability . If you ever believe that’s a workable solution.
It has been mis-managed by totally incompetent management for years , draw any parallels that you want. I can understand why any pilot from SA offered a job would probably take it despite the conditions especially if they hold a SA passport with limited options of being able to emigrate to another country |
AT is doing this for purely humanitarian purposes... :rolleyes:
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Some senior Australian politicians have postulated bringing threatened white South African farmers into the country (a welcome change to some of the trash being allowed to immigrate into Aus under current policy).
Predictably, the lefties are squealing 'racist' and the South African government is denying that there is a problem. I personally would welcome any new South African to fly with me in Cathay Pacific. As long as he or she joins as a Second Officer, on the bottom of the seniority list. |
Those are some excellent points CR.
The great problem with joining the rat race is even if you win you're still a rat. |
Originally Posted by oriental flyer
(Post 10095850)
Before all of you deride the pilots of SAA trying to get out . Just read what is happening in SA right now , land grabs without compensation , farm murders almost daily .violent crime is out of control , and to top it all SAA is trying to shrink its way to profitability . If you ever believe that’s a workable solution.
It has been mis-managed by totally incompetent management for years , draw any parallels that you want. I can understand why any pilot from SA offered a job would probably take it despite the conditions especially if they hold a SA passport with limited options of being able to emigrate to another country If you don’t see this as a problem? Than your the problem. |
food for thought
Not that Im not calling foul myself with the SAA contracts, but just as food for thought, would the majority of SOs be kicking and screaming this quickly if it was any other airline other than SAA who got offered the contracts?
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Originally Posted by Curtain rod
(Post 10095469)
No. The "DECs" were hired just like everyone else, at the bottom of the list, on the prevailing contract at the time: Join as an SO, or a freighter FO on a base for 3 yrs, back when the freighter operation was only semi-integrated back into CX (pax 747 captains didn't have to fly the freighters unless they wanted to, and then approx 2007 all 747 captains had to also fly freighter if they wanted a temporary basing, and then in 2008 everybody had to, period).
But, back then, as new hires on Day 1, anyone could apply to become a freighter-only captain on super crappy freighter pay on a base, which soon came to include the new HKG freighter base, without housing but with reduced 24K allowance for captains. Thanks, idiots. Back then, anyone could change base to anywhere almost anytime in any country, and even be based at one place but have their roster based somewhere else, anywhere else (secret private deals, thanks, idiots), completely playing into the company's plan to skip all basing, seniority and contractual agreements while keeping FOs in HKG waiting for commands while all the idiots filled the 747 captain positions at lower pay and no housing. Thanks, idiots, for showing the company how much we're worth. So, in effect, they were DECs, but they were not DEC, just freighter-only DECs on different, lower pay on the crappiest deal with the worst rosters and a long, long wait -forever for most, as it turned out - to get off the freighter. Most are still waiting hopelessly. They joined as FOs and then filled the endless available freighter-only captain positions that nobody else wanted. Then, in 2008, the last of the ASL pilots were integrated into CX at the bottom of the seniority list (freighter-only captains forever, not enough years til retirement to get "pax" seniority to keep flying freighters anyways since no type changes here) but still on the non-existent crappy pay scale from before. By 2010, the last of the freighter captain fiasco finally came to an end with the last of those command courses, bases like SYD and YVR were overloaded with freigher-only captains (and little to no 747 freighter flights - so now they complain about too much PT they got in exchange for voluntarily taking crappy jobs at crappy pay to get bases ahead of more senior crew all while screwing HKG-based FO's out of an earlier promotion on full HKG terms including housing, thanks idiots), and freighter-only command courses were no longer offered on the bases or anywhere on the lower freighter terms, and then all commands were the same from then on, all HKG-based and anyone on a base had to come back to HKG for command unless they waited forever for a captain slot on a base (uhm, that only happened a bit on the 747, 6-7 yrs later or so, I think). Got that? . |
Seems like the feeding frenzy for the soon to be laid off SAA pilots is beginning. How many will be attracted to HK remains to be seen.
Be Different & Join Us - Job Details - South Africa Flight Crew Roadshow 2018 |
Originally Posted by DropKnee
(Post 10096035)
There are always going to be people with a sad story. Not my problem. If your country is FUBAR. Than have a revolution. Don’t come and **** on my door step. Not welcomed at all.
If you don’t see this as a problem? Than your the problem. |
Dropknee, you have a cold heart . I wasn’t suggesting that the SAA pilots come as DEC . They should join at the bottom of the seniority list as SO’s like everyone else . All I was pointing out is that with a South African passport they have very limited options and so a job with CX is a chance to live somewhere without the fear of being shot for nothing more than a cell phone .
Having said that if I were an SAA Capt and Scoot offered me a DEC and a chance to live in Singapore that would be my first choice |
If I was a caucasian pilot, with a family, in SA...I would be grasping at every chance I could to get my family out. There are numerous problems for whites in SA at the moment, they will increase and get worse. That is a definite fact.
If you want to vent anger about this (contract pilot recruitment), it is to CX you should direct it... As for the frequent jibes directed at South Africans on various threads...take a minute to walk in their shoes. |
Yes I appreciate that but Emirates etc were around before SAA announced a 10% reduction in size...
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Too true Curtain, my favourite is when guys who were happy to take an early freighter command are now whining at the latest letter to management because they just want be recognised as a Cathay Pilot not a freighter pilot.
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There are multiple options for the SAA guys at the moment not just Hong Kong. If you choose to take a job slap bang in the middle of a major industrial dispute and directly affect the efforts of those engaged in it then shouldn’t you expect to take some heat??? It’s not about nationality or personalities .The SA boys are great guys. It’s about how the management choose to treat their current staff which is to say .. if you won’t eat crap we’ll find some unfortunates desperate enough who will .
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Well, alls I can say is I hope they have a gander here, elsewhere, and talk to a few folks before making the leap and realize they are being used. And what has happened to the different factions over the years; other than some sweetheart deals for individuals (and I can't see how someone could live with themselves after doing something like this--dollars are fleeting but integrity lasts forever) all the groups have seen things decline significantly. The BEST that has happened is some places have broken even--kinda--and even this is due more to laws where they are than anything else.
A man who marries his mistress leaves a vacancy in that position. So it's probably wise to fully understand what one is getting into before sacrificing precious years (and seniority) to a cause that will not love you back. |
the contract FOs will be paid on CX FO1 scale.
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