FG VHHH 16th
 

So which flights decided that it was ok for discretion.

Apparently 6 diversions this morning.

Will we ever have a spine...

at what point do we name and shame and will the union do something about it instead of just sending reminders

At least give a hint of the flights, and the adults amongst us can check the actual times and confirm whether there's any untoward assistance or not....

Looks like these morons forgot about the recent emails re ARAP and 13th month.

Next Wednesday the DFO will tell us that the two SO crew compliment is just working fine.

Any 2 SO flights able to divert and make it back?

748 it appears....😡

nail in the coffin

But hey I'm sure they wearing their red lanyards proudly... what a joke.

...and rock up 20 mins early for their flights

Yep, well let’s put in a motion with the AOA to make captain’s discretion part of contract compliance.
This way you have clarity on that issue.

Yes, but cd is never even hinted at for being part of cc. Something they could easily do with plausible deniability.
I think the reason for not doing so is that they are not on that plane on that day with all the facts as the captain has them and makes his/her decision.

I seem to recall a recent pprune bollocking of of a captain who decided to use discretion to push to HKG, after a divertion due to a death of an infant. Perfect example, you had to have been there to understand.

The two second officer flights would have in a better position regarding max duty. However, the 3 man crew out of LHR must have been well in to discretion even if they pretended to have had foresight and burnt out the 3rd member enroute.

The company sets patterns based at the extreem of FTL limits knowing we'll go the extra mile to get it home if needed.

That was because both parties respected each other in the times when CX was great and expanding.

As said numerous times those days ended circa '94.

CX has nothing to lose when we are professional, shame they aren't.

Expel the Capt's from AOA.

or fail.

Simple.

One cannot with collaborators.

Expel the Capt’s what? Would have been a good post if done before the 10th beer!

Creeping CC - when was it decided to include CD? Can we have a list of what you keyboard warriors want to include next, or can we just stick to the AOA website, policy and not publicise what’s bunch of tw@ts we have become.

It’s not part of cc. Just a bunch of keyboard warriors stirring the pot.

Calm down about all this professionalism, CD, 2SO crews, max FTL rostering etc.
We are run (not led) by accountants.
When they do the cost benefit analysis on these events, they factor in an increased rate of diversion and recovery activity.
The accountants expect, and have budgeted for, a predicted number of diversions/recoveries. If you divert and decide to fight on through fatigue and/or use CD then all you are doing is taking ALL of the risk so that the account will end up under budget and trigger a bigger bonus!
If you call it a day after your rostered and planned duty, that included a diversion, then you are just operating to budget and as expected by the accountants.

Haha, had to laugh. You think putting people's lives at risk by extending Max FDP is "PROFESSIONAL"? The majority of people that use CD do it because they don't have the balls to park the airplane, so it's out of fear rather than out of professional choice. Who do you think is going to be crucified if something happens while you are in CD? If you really want to be professional about this, political issues aside, you would have to be stupid to ever use CD, all you're doing is putting culpability out of the company's hands and onto yours.

RQ response
 

I would have loved to have heard the response from the RQ on the 2 flights with 2 SOs when the captain said he will be using discretion... I know what I would of said.

Its 'commanders discretion' not 'commanders decision and thats final'. All crew have to play ball and a captain cannot force any crew to operate, anyone who says otherwise is just power hungry. If the FO had of just said 'cannot, fatigue' that is that. Any captain would be dumb to operate under those circumstances.

I would ‘of’ said ‘would have’.

'Commanders Discretion' should be 'Crew Discretion' anyway. All the Captain can do is ask his crew if they are fit to extend their FDP. He cannot declare that they will and the operating authority can't ask/order him to extend ( or even assume that he will and not bother to position a relief crew).
If you want to see a version of how the sky will fall in upon you from every aspect of your life should anything happen during your RTB 'goodwill gesture", take a look at the film of Sully. Cathay will not support you and will confirm that their top priority is safety and support you being hung, drawn and quartered.
Go to a Hotel and have your 10 hours rest. Cathay won't even bat an eyelid.

The SO is not required to be a crew member on the recovery flight so technically ADFUS you are correct , but if the FO says sorry I can’t do it what is the Capt going to do order him to fly . Any time I have ever used discretion in the years before CC I always asked every crew member how they felt . If anyone said that they were fatigued that was it ,we went to the hotel no questions asked ,and as far as the company was concerned it was always my decision should they ever ask which they never did .

It makes little sense to use CD. Just puts yourself at risk. One of the flights didn't make it back for 5 hours. In that time they could have easily called a crew out and no questions would be asked.

The others can fill in the Fu#king forms then.

I have seen crew control change the SO to a PX duty on a TPE-HKG return sector to avoid EFP.

What I meant CrwKunt (as I'm sure you realise) is that the Commander cannot extend without asking his crew if they agree. Much easier in the current climate if the Captain simply states that he's fatigued - it's called "Leadership".

It's more definite than that. The Air navigation order makes it an offence for anyone to operate when fatigued, and for anyone to make someone operate when they have informed you they are fatigued. This applies to the company and commanders alike. If as a Captain one of the crew informs you they are fatigued but you make the decision to tell them they are operating, then you have broken the law.

I can’t believe anyone would use CD on either a 3 man or a 2 S/O LRO.

There is no hope left if this is the mentality of our pilots.

Maybe as a reward they’ll get to go on a float with the prancing carrot at next year’s CNY parade...

...the 'prancing carrot'....!! :D

I don't think that is correct. Anything using the 18 hour limit is done so if 4 pilots are boarded. If you remove one (or 2) and call it PX, then you cant use the blanket 18 hour allowance for the total duty (or 17:15 for two sectors).

Curtain, is that 3 or 4 crew? I think they can do it with 3, weirdly.

Be nice if everyone consistently stuck to 18 hours then they’d finally get the message ‘ don’t bother asking’!!!

My understanding:

The Captain carries the authority and, more importantly, the responsibility.

CD is the Captain exercising an FTL defined discretion with agreement from all participating crew members.

Captains decision is ‘final’. That means it cannot be overridden.

However, the reasoning and processes leading to the Captains decision in exercising Discretion (or not) can and are open to explanation and review. A case of suspension pending review when CX doesn’t like the decision: Fact.

Upshot: The decision is usually made in a potentially fatigue and time risking environment. The Commercial and Job Security pressures to exercise CD are higher than can be appreciated by a keyboard warrior. The Captain also carries the can if the CD goes pear shaped. Therein lies the CD dilemma.

Just say NO. It isn't that difficult. Most of us can figure that out (other than the 'prancing carrot'). Say NO, and then let them sort the problem out. Not your responsibility.

Not sure how it works in CX but if you have agreement from sufficient crew to operate the sector legally then you don't need the agreement of all crew members to exercise discretion, only sufficient.


What effect does it have on a crew member's duty period if they are called in from standby? With my last employer it only effected the subsequent rest period which could not be reduced prior to next duty. Prior to that, in the UK, 50% of the actual period spent on standby counted towards the duty period that followed, quite restrictive on long haul, less so on short haul.

You guys must be nascar fans, cause you Really enjoy going around in circles.

The truth of the matter is that had all 6 flights pulled the plug at the alternates last week, this week we would be having serious progress on actually fixing things.

Stop going in circles and start actually doing something. Don’t be stupid about it, and bull**** your way out of it with as much safety jargon as humanely possible. The end result will be... big surprise here: actual results.

Imagine that.

Just put the names up on the Aoa forum — they’re undermining the sacrifices of many in a time of harsh conflict and you continue to allow them anonymity. I’m not suggesting persecution but the members under duress have a right to know who the collaborators are.

Why don’t you put that question with your name up there first....


I didn’t think so