USA Immigration crackdown
 

As mentioned in the latest AT tirade, the US Immigration authorities are investigating ALL CX employees who are based in the US. It is suspected that this action has been triggered by a concerned person who feels that certain US based jobs are being occupied by unauthorized individuals, to the detriment of US individuals trapped in HK and not able to obtain a base. CX has managed to antagonize the authorities (and citizens) in nearly every country they operate into, and now you can add the USA to that list. I guess doing things sensibly and lawfully in the first place was just too much trouble. I would also suggest that playing games with the bases will also now come back to bite. Reap/sow.

Oh, and as an aside; to anyone still delusional as to any aspect of a ‘career’ at CX improving, here is AT’s Slido response to a question about the cost of living in HK: “Other than the existing pay scale increments, which guarantee annual increases in base salary for our SOs and most crew, there are no plans to further increase the pay scale. Our remuneration is very competitive, and exceptionally so when viewed over the course of a career.”

She actually has the nerve to say your package is ‘very competitive’ and ‘exceptionally so’ ! Tell that to the wife. Don’t say you haven’t been told the truth of how little your concerns are valued, or that you will be able to be financially secure at CX. There are better employers and better careers to be had elsewhere. To stay at CX will assure misery, anger and frustration.

A little bird tells me that there is a serious ongoing investigation by the FAA regarding certain aspects of our operation. The US Feds do not take kindly to the safety of their citizens being compromised. I believe the DFO will be on the hot seat in very short order. I wouldn't be heading to the US anytime soon if I were her.

Having a chairman who surrendered their US citizenship probabily doesn’t help the PR

I imagine the ICE folks who raided the SFO office might be having a hard look at I9's AND the H1B applications CX sponsored for those flight deck "Managers" in their "specialty occupations." Misrepresenting an occupation on a Visa application to gain approval really doesn't meld with ensuring full compliance of all immigration regulations regardless of country now does it? I'd say it underscores just the opposite.

Safe to say there is a far bigger story here. Will be interesting to see it play out. I know many Americans stuck in HK while other nationalities occupy their base is a festering sore.

Plenty of room on the US base for all, Americans and Non. If pilots are stuck in HK (and they are, not just Americans but many nationalities), it is the fault of our feckless management. They have a clear win-win with ALL the bases, already set up and administered. Rather, they choose to subjugate pilots at significant (expat) expense to the bottom line.

As they say, you can’t fix stupid!

"Plenty of room on the US base for all, Americans and Non."

Sorry, but I musta missed the part about:

A Permanent Resident Card (also known as a Green Card),
An Employment Authorization Document (work permit), or
A proper employment-related visa which allows you to work for a particular employer.

I'm thinking CX mighta missed this part too.

Not the point... Mine is that it’s not Canadians or any others on the US base that are keeping others from it. The management has restricted base opportunities out of little more than animosity. There could be hundreds more pilots on the US bases. If management continues to cut off their nose to spite their face in every possible way, then they will fail and likely take the whole airline with them.

ICE and possibly the US courts will determine legality, but it is moot if our obtuse third floor bean-counters can’t do better at their jobs. They are truly awful at their functions. If we were anywhere close to as bad as pilots, there would be no passengers entrusting their safety with us.

JS, RH, AT, etc... Don’t confuse the past success of Cathay Pacific as having anything to do with you. This airline’s reputation was built by flight and cabin crew, engineers, and ground staff and support personnel, NOT you! YOU ARE, however, destroying it at a rapid rate.

Cxorcist is correct about the 'subjugate pilot' bit however.

Just curious - how does tax residency work for US domestic airlines?

I.e. if someone is on a LAX base for UA, but commutes from Nevada, do they pay California or Nevada state taxes? Or Illinois because UA is headquartered in Chicago?

State taxes are paid/not paid based on the pilots “listed” permanent residence. Base/domicile, or company headquarters, is irrelevant.

Cxorcist is also correct as to who is to blame for the inevitable downfall of this airline.

Under tax residency law in this case, the person would pay Nevada state taxes (i.e where he is domiciled) unless 50% or greater of his flight time occurs in CA.(yes I know NV has no personal state income tax).

For employment law the rules generally follow where the person is based (i.e. CA).

Even in spite of the weather and ocean, you would have to be bonkers to live in Mexifornia.

Who would be subject to criminal prosecution for making false statements during the application process, the company, the pilot, or both?

Interesting to read the above. For what its worth CX never sponsored any Canadian with a H1B visa, try L1A. ICE was in SFO last week and inspected 77 companies. CX was not the only company inspected.

https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/artic...a-12544863.php

I find it very interesting that most posters think that anything illegal was done or false statements were given. I am sure the lawyers who were involved in the whole process would disagree.

Anyways we will know within a couple of weeks what ICE has to say.

In regards of US bases, I do not think there will be any available until the California court case has been resolved, which can take another 3-4 years if the plaintiffs and company don't settle outside court. If the court case goes class action I am afraid there might be no US Basings in the future.

Yes, you are correct about the 77 companies. And all 77 were targeted due to 'investigative' findings that then placed CX as one of the 77. They weren't just random picks. Also, could you provide the reason for the lawsuits against the company in the US? I am not aware of these. Thanks.

GTC58

H1 or L1, pawning pilots off as managers sure seems like a very interesting manipulation. Maybe ICE won’t dig that deep and check since the CX SFO office raid was likely just a casual social call they got caught up in out of sheer happenstance with other straight up companies.

I agree it is up to ICE et al. and there may very well be nothing false or illegal surrounding any of this, serious questions aside.

ColonelAngus

Don’t know, good question. I’d imagine they might have an answer at 1-866-DHS-2-ICE

I guess the Canadians without a green card/citizenship/Work visa are going to have a tough pill to swallow when they figure out that the US and Canada are two very distinct countries. The US actually has immigration laws, and finally is now enforcing those laws to the benefit of US citizens and the treasury. The Canadians have fooled themselves and misled the ICE officers for a long time now...... you can’t enter the country to start work, when you tell them that you are entering the USA for leisure!

Us has Immigration Laws ???
 

If you're a Canuk (or other) working for CX in LAX/SFO you have zero to worry about.. Simply arrive from Mexico without a visa and stay in California, the nations newest "Sanctuary State". Why bother with a work visa, millions don't?

"US actually has immigration laws" = what a joke.

Prior to the Trump administration, I'd agree 100%

I don’t think an ICE raid is a joke.

A Mexican and a Canadian worker are equal in terms of needing the right to work in the US. There are a lot of fat white chicks left, so hurry up and pick one for your green card before the Mexicans get them all.

Vtwin

Location- "In a van down by the river" ? Are we talking the Rio Grande ?

airplaneridesrfun

Really, maybe we should ask the approx 12 MILLION "Illegal Aliens" presently in the US how many are Canadian..

If you're a Canuk, you'll be thrown out IMMEDIATLY, no questions asked. If you're from South of the Rio Grande, welcome to California, how may we help you.

Curtain
 

There will be no more fines; our "People Dept" Leadership is on top of this issue as the Director has an extensive background in this area:rolleyes:

Curtain, you may be correct, but the problem is that the days of 'fudging' the facts, truth, laws and the effect it has had on peoples lives (like the yanks who are stuck in HK) are effectively over. There is ample evidence that the whole NA base has been jury-rigged and is based on many cosy assumptions and falsehoods (if not outright illegality). This current enforcement action will upend many lives unfortunately, but the ultimate blame lies with a company that has for years acted as though the laws don't apply to them, whether in HK or overseas. The ones who get hurt are the employees and their families who trusted that a major employer would have a modicum of responsibility towards them and their welfare (Paris, Manchester...etc). This company is toxic, and the proof is evident every single day. Anyone who plans on risking their livelihood and their families security with this proven bunch of gangsters will rue the day...

I agree that an ICE raid is no joke. However, I believe the law may be on the side of non-Americans working in the US, specifically on “foreign registered vessels”. Vessels can be aircraft or ships, but I think this law was designed with ship crews in mind, specifically those commuting to crew ships from US ports.

One could argue that an airline job with more regular commuting is a different dynamic, especially considering reserve and other airline specifics. Do said employees retain the same employment protections as a US citizen, green card holder, or other approved visa worker? Do state specific laws apply to foreign nationals working in CA and other states?

These are questions that cut to the core of a global economy and workforce. Trump is certainly less friendly to foreign workers than was the previous administration. Yet, the issue would likely be determined in court if pursued. That said, I’m not sure CX would bother to spend money in court if the Feds pressed the issue, and that might be the beginning of the end of the US base.

Well, it won't be you or I determining this. It will be ICE, and they apparently have been 'led' to the issue, by a person(s) who have a vested interest. The landscape has changed in the USA regarding immigration/work status. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

my 2c worth: I think it is a bit of a stretch to suggest that a permanent base of foreign workers, ostensibly taking jobs from Americans could be considered kosher. I don't know the answer, but it really doesn't pass the smell test. Imagine a bunch of Americans taking up all the OZ slots, or Frenchmen taking all the London slots (after Brexit :)).

The hypocrisy of anyone who has drawn ICE’s attention to the US base is unbelievable .
They were very happy to take up a work permit and residence in HK as a foreigner. But as soon as a base was set up in the US and they didn’t have the seniority to hold it they went squealing to immigration about non green card holders being employed in the USA .
If they feel so strongly then they should have stayed in the USA instead of taking a job which could have gone to an Aussie , Brit , or South African .
I know this doesn’t apply to a lot of the USA pilots who are great guys but the sense of entitlement from a few is unbelievable

Nonsense oriental flyer. HKG is open to everyone, all bases are currently shut to those who don’t have the right to work, not just the US bases. You also left out the part about legality. If there is nothing wrong with the current arrangement, then no one is disadvantaged, scrutiny brought to bear or not, except maybe US pilots. It’s hypocritical for you to squeal about the legal right to work at US bases only. It is also indefensible to knock anyone who doesn’t share your same sentiments regarding the laws of maybe their own country. How do you know this raid was due to only an American(s) pushing for it? Maybe it was a jealous exchange rate driven Canadian? Maybe even yourself? This might of come about other ways too.

ICE is presently targeting many businesses in California. I doubt anyone reported CX to ICE to target their pilots. Every employee in SFO, ground staff, cabin crew and pilots were audited. CX just fit a certain profile which ICE wanted to audit.

Well, in regards of some posters being hypocritical, you all are aware that there are many US citizens on a Canadian base with no visa. I remember one American who took an early freighter command in YVR who was the most vocal to get Canadians kicked of the US base.
Now thats someone I would call hypocritical.

It also seems, most of the above posters are not familiar with the law in the US. California Supreme Court ruled a couple of years ago that all California laws, specifically discrimination laws, apply to undocumented immigrants. As such, employers can not discriminate against national origin regardless of status. Considering this ruling, CX might be already in non-compliance as they restrict Canadians to stay on base and in rank on the California bases, even though they are employed under a US CBA with US labour and discrimination law protections. In addition CX insisted since 93 that it is totally legal for Canadians to fly CX jets out of California bases and lets say ICE rules that this is not the case CX could be facing significant litigation in California by those affected.

Most Canadians on the US base are classified non-resident aliens as they live and commute from Canada. The same applies to Americans on the Canada base. There are provisions for this under NAFTA and US / Canada immigration laws. When CX onshored the US bases, there was significant time and money spent for US immigration lawyers to determine if Canadians can remain on the base. IMO ICE will just confirm this and the status quo remains.

Caught in a potential tug-of-war between CA and the Feds? Good luck with that going through Customs.
Working for this place really is a true pain in the ass...
How many Americans in Canada? 25 or as “many” as 5?

How many Canadians in the US? Does it matter?

Many more than 5, and if they are there legally, then none of this matters.

Traf
 

100% right on Traf.. The background experience and education of the now Dir of Peeps proves that. Swires don't want things done "properly" they want it done their way... The new top "Leadership" just announced will be exactly the same. It's a family trait thing that's been around for about 200 years.

It’s all a moot point arguing over the legality. Bases are done. Over. Finished. Never to be seen again. Dying on the vine. Finito! Ended. Forever a thing of the past. A pipe dream. A fool’s hope. A sucker’s belief. Completely sunk. Anyone thinking differently is completely delusional. Anyone staying for a base is delusional. Anyone hoping for a base is hoping in vain. Bases are cooked.

Not to mention having certain based pilots happy to ignore CC in HK, and help the company out with G day flying / discretion / joining training. The ironic thing about all of that is that they are cutting their own throats and those of their colleagues. Undermine the fight in HK (thereby enabling CX towards a cheaper HK cost basis), and you eventually get forced back to HK as they no longer need bases. :D

I trust those joining training on a base and returning to Hong Kong will be banned from the HKAOA! Oh, of course not!

Read the c1D visa... foreign crew 29 days EACH visit... the word base is pure BS no matter what the company says. Nothing to say you can’t own a house and spend a week or so in the USA between trips.
No need to file tax either as days in the USA as a crew member count for ZERO towards tax residency.
They cocked it all up from the get go as usual !