Yammer, then HAMMER !
 

It is gratifying to at long last see our management receiving the full bore of both barrels of the pilot shotgun. Long past due. Kudos to all my colleagues who have bravely (only necessary due the nature of our management) provided clear insight as to the absolute debacle that the past 20 years of management oppression represents. However, it is predictable that the management will choose to hunker down and wait for the 'storm of words' to pass. And it will if we don't back it up with action, as well as the words. To drive home the message that we HAVE reached the breaking point, and we WILL NOT tolerate any further such treatment, it is imperative that the operation itself demonstrates the message as well. Between now and CNY, we MUST each resolve to take action to do their part in reinforcing the message now being sent. If the operation is not affected, then you can be sure that the management WILL ignore EVERY WORD. This is the opportunity we have all waited for. A blind, ignorant, arrogant and ultimately incompetent management have finally unleashed the built up frustrations and anger of 3000+ pilots whom they employ. Now they must be brought to understand that they must never take us for granted again. Only a real impact on the operation will ensure that. It is up to each and every one of us to make sure that message nails them to the wall.

I also want to add this point. We have been abused, threatened and mistreated for 20+ years. They have ignored our own rules, common rules of labour decency and arguably 'coerced' the courts to obtain favourable rulings. In all of this have been lives destroyed and families ruined. Most tragic and appalling is the fact that three lives were lost due to these management actions, and a small child orphaned (and I ask any of you who are parents to ponder that). To this day the disgust I feel for those involved in the 49er episode is visceral and eternal, and I have faith those people will ultimately pay for their actions. In my opinion JL has now become the 50th member of the 49er's. Regardless of any failings on his part, the company victimised him and his family and cynically tried to send a message. Well, they're now getting a message back. The AOA must insist on his rehiring. There cannot be any labour peace until that is accomplished and he is back at work. Further, any other members who are victimised must also be rehired before any labour peace will be agreed. It is time to crush the tyranny of the Swires, and it can and will be done with the same resolve we now see developing on Yammer. Stand up for your colleagues, and let this company know that the days of picking off pilots to make an example is over. All back at work before any peace. End of.

Unfortunately this will have a negative impact on financial performance and pushes CX further in the red.

Maybe the CX employees should think outside the box.

- Every CX employee should get a trading account and use their 13 month payment (captains as they see fit) to put a buy order at the stock exchange for CX shares.

- Buy as many CX shares as possible. Organize all these shares under 1 proxy.

- Contact Quatar and Air China, explain the management situation in detail.

- Have an extraordinary shareholders meeting.

- Convince as many private shareholders how dire the management situation is

- Vote to replace the board of directors.Hopefully 50% +1 will vote in favour.

- Instruct the new board of directors to replace the entire CX management team with outside talent.


This is the only way I see any positive change happen. As an extra bonus shares will appreciate when the new management team turns CX around.

You obviously don't understand the share structure with CX. There is not enough public 'float' to have any effect on the price, or the board decisions. The ONLY thing that will get their attention is when the operation breaks down. THAT is what is needed. And why would I care if the airline goes further into the red?? I seem to recall that they have effectively paid me next to nothing for the past 6 years or so in profit sharing, and now have callously withheld the 13th month from me. Not much incentive to worry about the bottom line. And regardless of the figures on the annual report, it doesn't seem to stop our management from awarding themselves ever larger pay raises and bonuses. So please, spare me talk about concern of the 'negative impact on financial performance'. We all know what we NEED to make happen.

25% of all shares have to be public. Not saying that those are available to buy. However their interest might not be aligned with Swire.


Plus, may I add you don’t have anything to lose. Apparently you are months from retirement. Any consequences to any actions you suggest will not affect you!

Oh, so my suggestions aren't valid then. Ok, got it. I'll stop posting...feel better? (and regarding your comments on the board replacing the management...you obviously are clueless as to the structure of the board, and how they are completely beholden to the Swire's. Educate yourself a bit more on the subject before making pointless suggestions as to solutions. There is only one solution, and I have stated it in the first post on this thread).

Shareholders appoint members of the board.

You are one of those who rather burn the place down without thinking about the consequences. Easy to say when you can bugger off anytime with millions in the bank as an ex A scaler and STC.

No point in posting more.

No.. I'm happy to burn it down.

I'm done with this.

They sort it, or I'm happy to help CX stop.

"burn the place down". No, I am insisting that the management stop burning our careers down. It surprises me you can't see that after 20+ years of management attacks, the only thing left is to cause them pain. Otherwise they will continue with their goal of completely removing any value from our profession. I suspect you are management, so nice try, but the gates of hell have been opened by you and your colleagues, and the pilot group is now united in putting an end to these two decades of misery. (and as for being an A scaler with 'millions' in the bank. That is EXACTLY what every pilot who puts in 20+ years in HK deserves. Nothing less, and that applies to all my junior colleagues who have been abused and taken advantage of the past decade).

I think GTC58 is on to something. If everyone puts their $35000 into the pot, this will buy about 4.5m shares. Add these to Quatar's (and maybe Quantas' too) shares and that will move Qatar's holding from 9.6% all the way to 9.7% of the total shares. That will give us the power to go after the board. Now you're talking.


And ASL pilots were always portrayed to be the dumb ones. Please, someone tell me my maths is wrong or that GTC was just kidding.

I've been reading all the eloquent and heartfelt posts on Yammer, clearly demonstrating that the problem lies with our management. Most of the posts conclude by stating that the management need to 'listen' and then act on the concerns of the pilots. Well, I hate to pop everyone's bubble, but that is the ONE thing they won't be doing. At the moment they are in their corporate bomb shelter waiting for the storm to pass. The only thing that will force them to enact positive change is if the operation begins to suffer, and the public and government both react negatively. Our management has an institutional inability to offer any benefit or increase in conditions to their pilots. The only way that will change is if they are forced to. That is why I believe that the best option for most is to conclude that the option of a good career at CX is closed. Many have left, and many more are in the process. In the meantime, take action to do your own part in sending a REAL message. One that they can't ignore. Parked aircraft and angry passengers. THAT is what will begin to turn this aviation equivalent of the Titanic around. This management has sent us countless surveys, with the most appalling results rendered. They have not listened to a one. In fact, this past weeks message from the Chairman stated that "to win with our customers we need to win with our people". Well, the first thing they did after that was the 13th month debacle. So you can see that what needs changing is their mindset, and that will ONLY happen when they begin to suffer corporately and publicly. Until then, they will blame (and attack) us, and keep raising their own pay and bonuses. Each and every individual needs to take action to ensure they suffer that pain. Otherwise, it's all just words.

And I completely agree with Traf's comments regarding pilots being victimised. There is NO peace until every pilot so treated is back at work. We support our brothers and sisters without question. Beginning with JL. If the company knows that the airline shuts down if one is fired, then no one will be victimised. That is the protocol at nearly every airline I know. It needs to be that way here.

AOA now posting on Yammer FFS.
Having been asleep since early November the prospect of pilots talking directly to to DFO has awoken the GC.
Whilst I have absolutely no intention of having a chat with AT in The Street. I equally have no intention of allowing a bunch of :mad: like the GC represent me either.
Your time came and went. You are redundant now.

Can't disagree with that sentiment Checklist. Although I appreciate their volunteering for the job, they have failed. Now, the anger is out in the open, and the pilots are taking their own action. Another colleague called me this evening and told me he had just received his job offer. Now off 'unfit', but not coming back to CX, ever. Multiply that by the coming hundreds and you soon realise that the operation is doomed.

Considering all the sentiment on Yammer regarding the need for the company to 'listen' and 'respond', I believe their first response should be to pay the "D" level staff the same $35K that the other staff received. That should be the starting point for any commencement of proper discussions.

Traf is right. Our management will stay in their 9th floor 'shelter' and ride this out. Only action against the operation will get their attention. All the best wordsmiths in the world won't make a dent in their attitude or convictions, UNLESS they are forced to reckon with a collapsing operation. It's up to each one of us to make sure they are confronting such a thing. Holidays are coming.

Just saw on the "Telegraph Travel Awards" (Telegraph newspaper, London) that CX was voted the 9th (!) best long haul. I remember a time when it was vying for 1st and 2nd each year. Another sign of the failure of our management.

In order:

Singapore
Emirates
Qatar
Air New Zealand
Virgin Atlantic
All Nippon
Korean
Thai Airways
Cathay
Etihad


:D

Flown Etihad twice.. they are way better than us.
Poll is wrong.

I would put JAL in the top 5. They are my airline of choice these days, especially as Tokyo is on my itinerary for family matters. Travelled as a pax on one of our earlier 350's (LRG) the other day and it is already looking very worn out in J. Bits peeling off all over the place. Like the cracked mirrors in the dunnies, probably due to hard landings!

HA.

I'm in the JAL lounge in Narita now.
Bought JAL tickets home for xmas.

More money lost to CX.

The draft beer machine in this lounge is amazing.

Qantas only advertises where it can 'scoop awards'

• Qantas management way smarter than your guys, they took a world renowned brand, trash talked it themselves.

• Grounded a 'terminal airline'

• Poured air frames into JQ with a very elastic demand (no yield potential)
• Wrote off long haul fleet-saved depreciation
• Got lucky with fuel price!
• business profitable again
• Made themselves millions with CEO Mr Joyce the most remunerated CEO in Australia..
• All this on the same contracts, with the same fleet as when it was a' terminal airline'
• Goes through Dubai, abandons it and returns to Singapore.
• Got one, no two 787 with LN 615!

Qantas survived despite management not because of it..airlines are people businesses!

350 by IKEA..water egress from front valley to biz by Rutland Blackwater and toilets by portaloo...you couldn't make this up..and who's head rolled..?nope..you guessed..not a single guillotine in sight.

Except for the DFO, who has been forced onto ‘The Street’ with a wooden stool and a plastic kindergarten table to explain to the pilots why she hates them! From the 9th floor to the 3rd floor to the street. Soon she’ll be sitting in the car park feeding the birds....

As I suspected, the initial fire lit under Yammer is now starting to fade. In response to the eloquent and heartfelt (and entirely justified) comments that so many posted, the management has responded with.....exactly nothing.

The Swire strategy has been to ride out the storm, and now the storm is subsiding. They will think they are now safe to come out of their cubicles and resume the tear-down of the pilots lifestyles, pay and benefits.

The ONLY way the words of our indignation and righteous anger will have any meaning if is they are backed up by ACTION. I, and most of those colleagues I have personally spoken with are committed to taking such action. I remind every pilot in this airline that we all have the same goal, and all stand to lose if this management is allowed to continue as before.

We are now into the crucial holiday season. Our management is hoping to bluff us out until they are past CNY, then there will be no stopping them. The time is now to make your value count. Take responsibility for your own long term best interests, and those of your colleagues. Without a change of direction in this airline, there will be no career worth having at CX. We all know that now.

Never forget last weeks lesson as to what our management really thinks of us, and conduct yourselves accordingly.

Well, now that everyone has thrown their handbag at the management...what next? Just asking.

They’re going to stick their tongues out...

Brilliant, that will show them ! :ok:

Hoping everyone is aware that they have guaranteed more pain to come (and soon) by their complete dereliction towards an appropriate response to our managements insult and mistreatment. I guess there is no fixing 'stupid'.

Stupid is forgivable and not inherently the problem in most cases. It’s cowardice that I have a problem with. Yes, you know who you are, over 90% of those reading this. Just know how disgusting your braver CX colleagues find you. You should be wondering every time you step into the cockpit.

You mean the ones standing at dispatch right now diligently checking their paperwork, knowing our office wallahs are about to arrive to continue putting together their plans to cut our pay and benefits. What more be said.

Traf,
I understand your frustration. It is shared by many but most I speak to are foolishly waiting for some kind of leadership from the AOA. I am sick and tired of telling them this will never happen but most have no idea about industrial action/strikes/work to contract schemes. Unless the AOA comes up with an App these kids simply don't know what to do or how to do it. Pathetic.
They are not pilots. They are warm bodies that fill a regulatory requirement to sit in a seat for 8 hours at a time. CX Training could save a fortune by letting them do their renewals at home. They just login and sit for 8 hours looking out the window or eating. Simple.

CLC, thanks for your thoughts, of which I completely concur. You correctly highlight the problem: most are waiting for direction from the AOA. The pilots in this airline reflect a simple fact of human nature. Very few are 'leaders'. Most want to be led. Hence we see everyone looking around furtively hoping the gaze of guilt is not focused on them. Well, it's too late to hope someone else will do the leading for you. Either every pilot in this airline wakes up today and starts to agitate for the sake of their careers, or they won't have a career. There is no clearer choice. Let's see what the next few weeks bring.

Traf , back in 99 when we had a clear mandate from the AOA, the majority of pilots , basically all the A scalers at the time, couldn’t find the courage to stand up and be counted . There were a number of very brave individuals that resisted in every way possible and 49 that the company wanted rid of suffered terribly .
As long as the majority are as weak as piss don’t hold your breath . They all want “you “ to take on management on your own , while they stay safely in the trenches. What they fail to realise is that unless you all go over the top of the trenches together the enemy will pick off the few brave enough to poke their heads up .
It’s not like you are risking your life , perhaps your job ,but If everyone stands as one, and refuses to go back to work until anyone who is fired is reinstated The problem is solved.
Sadly I am so disgusted with the people that I work with . It’s not a function of the AOA giving direction it’s the fact that most are too scared to do anything even if they did .
As you say expect further cuts to your career in the coming months

joblow. I can't take issue with what you say. It is a sad fact that somehow CX have managed to hire people woefully lacking in courage and character. I've been in and out of dispatch this past couple of weeks just observing. Everyone wearing their red lanyard, yet there they are, crewing the aircraft. Right upstairs, in the offices above, people are sitting in conference rooms daily, discussing strategy on how to erode the value of their careers. A more bizarre dichotomy I can not find. If the pilots of this airline are not willing to individually stand up for their futures (and all they have to do is call cc and say they are unfit...even for 3 days for pete's sake!), then how can they expect anything other than more of the same abuse from management. The final day of reckoning is approaching and they are heading towards the slaughter like sheep. Very sad indictment of our people. Wholly lacking in courage and character. If they don't wake up now, then never well.

A further thought regarding ARAPA recipients. Considering what the management has been able to do to us over this end of year debacle, do you honestly think that letting them steamroll you like this, without ANY reaction from you individually, is going to protect your ARAPA past the end of the year? I seriously doubt it. In fact, I believe that the rather cowardly reaction from the majority has all but ensured cuts at every level of our package. You have proved to our management that they can do whatever they want. Congratulations. Enjoy your 'career'. If you weren't willing to even call in sick for a few days (particularly the Captains, who have been deliberately insulted and disrespected), what chance of you ever taking real industrial action. :D

Fixed
 

No worries Pucka, all these problems will disappear when Haeco Americas begins to manufacture and install all the new AC interiors right ?

With all this ranting here, I sometimes wonder does a pilot union actually exist in your company? If it does, what do you pay your subscription for? I thought when Swire announced they are planning to take away housing allowance, that would be the final straw! You will always have accountants running airlines - MOL, Walsh, Cruz constantly cutting back, if they don't save, they're not doing their job properly. But if we give an inch, they will take a mile! By the looks of things, cutting housing is certainly only the first of many things, before you know it, it will be safety, then followed by your pension and salary!

etops330

In CX we don't really have a union. It likes to call itself one but government recognition is flimsy to say the least and strike action unlawful in HKG. So the union has no teeth at all. It is also manned by a president and general council who only see this as a stepping stone into CX management itself, much like the WW ascendancy in EI and then BA/IAG.
Generally they are junior pilots with little real experience but think they can outwit the best aviation consultants money can buy. Most CX pilots join the union out of ignorance or to tap into a loss of license scheme few could afford as an individual.
Called the HKAOA it is a joke but with monthly fees higher than most pilot unions in the world (to pay the professional secretary a handsome salary with housing allowance and to rent office space in Hong Kong, the dearest city on the planet). Most senior pilots are not members and the young kids joining now don't know what to do.
It is nothing like BALPA and never will be hence we are being trampled over by the company.

The flight attendants have an effective union called FAU. They have teeth. Maybe we should join them.

Thanks for your interest etops330

CC

They own the Office, strikes are legal the problem is companies can dismiss you for no reason. A lot of other errors but I can't be bothered correcting them.

Thought you knew better!

No kidding CC. Not even close. Also, dues for the HKAOA are dirt cheap compared to most major airline unions. No CX pilots pay more than 1%, most far less, and the loss of license insurance is included. For some of the most junior pilots, the insurance costs are more than their dues.

Now I will admit that the HKAOA is fairly ineffective so you don’t get much for your money. There are times in the past that this hasn’t been the case, but right now there seems to be a real shortage of leadership.