https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytMXSLeqFMY

as a history lesson this is how LKY handled the SQ pilots.

If you are an expat in Hong Kong, I assume your residence permit is tied to your job ? At least the Aussies could sit at home and wait, where as you’d get a couple of weeks to pack up and go. Does anyone fancy paying for their own accommodation and living expenses if you try to wait it out with no pay or benefits ? I doubt the company would be flying you and your family home in business class either.

Disruption to the Hong Kong economy would have you viewed as “enemies of the people”. Air China could be asked to step in by the government, and even if they had to cancel other flights, the capacity would be found to make an example of you and deter industrial militancy in other sectors. Western pilots winning would cause loss of face which can’t be allowed to happen.

Former CX pilots would also be likely to be blacklisted from future employment in China in the event of a mass resignation.

Leave if you want, but have another job lined up. Monarch going bust has put a large number of pilots onto the job market who are concerned about the next mortgage payment and can’t afford to be too fussy about terms and conditions, don’t end up like them.

Best of luck, we all hope you win.

However, already passed this with HKAPA. Just applying it to more crew

Do you imagine a Monach 50 year old Captain flying as an SO in CX, I doubt it.

China needs so many Captains that Spring Air only would take them all.
Bonus they would be able to commute and won’t have to move the family.

LKY was a tyrant and Singapore was and still is a dictatorship. So is SQ.

LKY was successful because he was a tyrant and Singapore was and still is a dictatorship. So is SQ.

This is how China Airlines staff dealt with their issues.

https://youtu.be/i6lNj5D2G50

Do you imagine a 50 year old Monarch Captain flying as a Captain in Cathay if the union gets taken down ?

Australia introduced provision in the regs to enable quick replacement of pilots in the event of another 1989.

And somewhat ironically, I recall Monarch was one of the airlines who Ansett dragged in to break the dispute.

I think too many guys are getting hot under the collar. Yes the housing for CX ( and ultimatly KA) will be reduced for B scalers. However, it wont happen overnight and a grandfather right for perhaps 2 or 3 years will be inplace to allow reconfiguration of mortgages and/ or current leases.

After that, then its over to 30k a month ( or 21k if you are a KA FO !)

Or 14k for a CX FO

What are CX actually offering instead of ARAPA?

Presumably HKAPA, as that has been shown to be enough to provide housing, from CX point of view

I think this is why Saudia built Saudia City--in addition to keep expats from mingling with the locals. Crazy thing, it was seniority based for the entire airline company, so you could have a guy who ordered desks and supplies for the airline owned elementary school with 25 years in to the company living in a furnished multi-story detached house and a new joiner pilot living in an HK-sized flat. Single stewardesses were stuffed into one corner of the complex and not allowed to show their faces. Imagine this scenario in HK.

History aside, I really wonder what this will do to prices in Tung Chung and DB. And I agree that CX is using the SCMP (or New China Daily as it seems now) to win publicity against the pilots. Many expats do not receive housing any more and will have little sympathy for those that do and have it cut. They are counting on continued goodwill from most of the pilot group, it is so obvious from the quotes in the news. So, if industrial action is taken, and holiday plans are ruined or jeopardized, the majority of the public is already against you and will turn on you even more. Honestly, the only road I see for you is broad industrial action; media interviews that do not draw on sympathy, but rather emphasizes the talent you bring to the airline and HK implied safety risks should that talent pool leave to any significant percentage. Seriously, a pilot rep should be on BBG, CNBC, TVB, RTHK, in the Standard, Op-Ed for SCMP, at least a few times a week.

Why do we care what the public thinks? It has absolutely no bearing on anything.

so how much is HKAPA? I'm KA...

Don't sell yourselves short. It's the guys in renters at $100k that there after. Knock it down to $70 and they have there 30%.

If everyone gets put on $30. Very few B scale will stay. Cx / ka can't handle that many walkouts.

HKPA is 10 for SO JFO,
14 for FO,
18 for SFO,
24 for Capt,
30 for Senior Capt

Senior Capt 7+ 36,000HKD

Housing was put forth to entice expats since HK lacked an aviation community. And lets face it HK isn't what it used to be, you really need to pay for the talent. Why need housing allowance when you're hiring mostly locals who will take anything as the other alternative is to work for a bank and get paid peanuts and NO HOUSING. Housing will soon be a relic of the past once every pilot is a local.

And again, there is the crux of the problem. There is no local aviation market to draw from. The majority of C Scalers are still expats - S.A., Cdns, Aus, etc - and the only ones knocking on the door can't get a job in the real world. An Airline with no experience base won't last very long in the age of social media and online hysterics.

The only time management will take notice is if people actually walk. I remember a few years ago we got stuck with a 10% pay cut. Half the Captains left and flights were being cancelled every day, then the cut was restored.

There was no union, no threats and no stand off. Just lots of resignation letters from people who were leaving for new jobs.

Curtain Rod people all around the world owe money to the banks. What's your point? That employers can't touch the remuneration of anyone with a mortgage?

But the majority are on mortgage assistance , taking upto $70k. Dont sell out your mates who have large families and choose space over greed. And surely its greed when folks are prepared live in 600sq feet so they can pay off that 10million debt asap?

Ultimatly the company want both purchase and rental options reduced.
If the max rental becomes $70k then the purchase will drop to around $45k max.
Still a sh1t load of money in the real world.

There is a lot talking and talking, talk is good.. Now just ask your colleagues in CX FAU... what to do? i think if they had some kind of allowance and going to lose it soon. there would be a strike on the horizon very soon the next peak period.

Well, I have 9 years left on my '15 years' (....where's my 25?) housing deal. At over $70K/mo. With taxes, supporting elderly parents, kids still in school, paying mortgage in home country, retirement, health care. So, when the 9 years is up Anna, come and talk. Until then, well, we'll see just how 'amicable' people like us will stay when our futures and families are threatened. Oh, and as for the rest of the pilots in the airline: HKPA, needs 'normal' housing (ARAPA) as a target. Basings: once they get rid of housing, how long do you think bases will last? The only course of action for all of us is to defend every condition that we have, and then fight for what we are all worth. Otherwise, there will be NO career worth staying for.

(oh, and Green Dragon: your $45K being worth a sh*t load of money in the 'real world'. Not in HK mate, just ask Anna and Rupert)

Air Profit - I hear you. But the precedent has been set, that HKAPA is good enough for some CX pilots, and it wasn't fought against before by all the pilots, so why expect all the pilots to fight for ARAPA now?

Good luck, and have a credible plan B for you and your family.

The answer I expected, and confirmation as to why this airline is now where it is, as compared to where it was 25 years ago. Enjoy the limited career you will undoubtedly experience. Lights out.

True. The rot set in in 92/93 when the airline wasn't shut down over introduction of B scale. It's been a litany of "I'm alright Jack" since then

Correct. And yes, I have a Plan B. Another C and T gone. (and I know, they don't care. But I will be leaving anyway. Life is too short).

Has anyone considered that CX is actually smart enough to hedge well and that this whole thing has been manufactured to strip CX crew of conditions?

Take a short term hit to save big in the long run. Nothing you can do will change their minds.

Sound familiar? Just look a few thousand miles to the south east for a similar business style.

I've long suspected that this was a contrived "crisis". At first I asked myself, "What sort of idiotic management would make a blunder this catastrophic"?. Especially the length and percentage of hedging. It then occurred to me that not even our management can be that stupid (....:hmm:). The more i've thought about it, the more i'm convinced that they deliberately made this decision to create a financial "problem" to then use as justification for their actions (as an example, they layed off 800 staff, but they have been rapidly rehiring in nearly all areas immediately after...). I am convinced this was a deliberate strategy, that simply got out of hand, with the price of oil staying lower for longer than they had anticipated. CX knows full well that they will soon be raking in record profits again. Even most of the top Investment Banks have released analyst reports stating so. If we don't stand up to them now (and I suggest that most of us are too stressed and ill to work reliably) then we will forever be crushed, and our careers worthless. I expect to see all my colleagues doing their part over the next 90 days to demonstrate to this venal and self-serving management group that there is a heavy price to pay for attacking us and treating us and our families with contempt. Up to every one of us to do our part to throw it back in their "smelly teeth" (a favourite Churchill quote!). This is THE very last chance to re-establish a proper balance between management and employees. Or does everyone like being treated this way?

So very true....

Which company audits CX?

Well said.

Consider what happened and how conservative the airline has been with testing the waters in EVERY OTHER ARENA. For its entire history. Always. That's why it doesn't make sense

And I'd REALLY like to see where exactly the money has gone in detail and who was the beneficiary of our 'blunder.'

I saw 2 years ago , by who ?
The stalwart of stand up n fight.
The together we are stronger BS merchant. LOL


Trafalgar , ffs, you really are full of HOT air. Now float away old chap n let off that steam on a beach somehere in Bali. Lol.

Ignore the troll.

KPMG according to the annual reports

What? PNG! :sad:

Oh well, never mind. I did my stint, maxed out the housing allowance on mortgages, cashed out after 10 years and headed off to better prospects elsewhere. The music stopped years ago, but a lot of people are still dancing.