Pilots win retirement age appeal
 

Pilots win retirement age appeal - 13-Sep-2017 - NZ Living & Travel news

Well Done !!!!!

Does this mean they will receive "A" scale to 65?

I hope so....and why shouldn't they?

Oh, they definitely should, as should the Canadian A scalers past 60.

agreed......

Final nail in the coffin for new bases then. Love how these guys took a base knowing exactly what the terms of the contract were, now they do this and give a big f### you to anyone else who might have wanted a base one day.

....but the 'terms' were illegal. Is it so wrong for CX to be held to legal account, in every jurisdiction? What about the principle that a country can't 'suspend' the laws for one employer (a precedent like the CX original contract conflicts with what other NZ employers have to abide by). Sorry, I know it makes the issue of bases difficult, but only to a venal, corrupt and malicious management. A management with integrity would structure the bases legally, properly and with a sustainable structure. CX of course preferred to do it 'their' way...hence dozens of lawsuits over the years.

Why would an old, about to retire, A scaler be a deterrent to new bases? The new based pilots would not be on A scale. What you're saying makes no sense.

In the US, things are a quite a bit different. The legality of the old CoS and even the new CBA are being called into question. Quite literally, the future of the bases, at least in CA, are in jeopardy. There will be no new base slots in CA, or probably even other non-CA bases, until the issues are resolved.

So, I guess according to your paradigm it'd be OK for the company to have incorporated the clause "If it can be proven you are solely of Caucasian descent you will be terminated" in the COS on the base.

Or later impose this into a new COS.

And perhaps they COULD do that in their little bubble.

But the nations with whom they might want to do business may have a different opinion--and say simply "if you want to do business with our nation and within our nation you will comply with our law." As several nations have done. If the company chooses to break the law it suffers the consequences of so doing.

Just like a bank robber suffers the consequences of HIS actions.

As far as your apparent Stockholm Syndrome no dice. Dividing the pilot group up and trying to have them place blame within different factions has largely resulted in the declining COSs everyone has seen to date. Everyone knows who is to blame. And everyone knows that we've not seen the company even keeping up with attrition on ANY base--just a fleeting carrot for the easily duped.

There will be no new bases offered anywhere ever again. Bases are dead.

Shep, exactly, and well explained. This company has been playing fast and loose with laws all around the world, and in HK they know it's effectively 'lawless' so that explains why they continue to get away with their antics there. Either the pilots group(s) unite and stand as one together against this mob, or we will all collapse and die separately. To the US, Canadian, Europe and Aus based pilots, I say to you all.....wake up to what is really going on here. If the HKAOA agrees to take strong industrial action (and you all know what I mean), then we must ALL support that, as eventually they will come after the bases as well. TIME TO WAKE UP. Only we, collectively, can stop the rot. Now is the time.

All the Associations need to issue a joint letter stating that the concerns of ANY base, including HK, are of importance and threat to EVERY base area, and that we will all support each other in any particular industrial situation. I realise there are contractual and legal issues to overcome, but now is the time to start developing a joint strategy.

Trafalgar, Shep,

Will this ruling make the company want to open up more bases?

What was the retirement age on the contract these guys signed originally?

Why weren't they up in arms when the guys ahead of them had to retire at their contractually agreed age?

Perhaps not. Doesn't change the fact that CX can't just decide to make up their own rules. Bases save CX millions, and that is even with them ADHERING to the laws of the land. They just don't like doing things legally and fairly. It's in their nature. Think of the nature of a snake or a scorpion (apologies to both species), they are what they are....as are the Swine's. They try it on, hope they get away with it, and when they don't, they lash out against the only entity they can really hurt, their own employees. Nice aren't they? Don't try and excuse their abhorrent behaviour. CX are the problem, not the employees who wanted to be treated legally. Just because they agreed to an 'illegal' contract doesn't mean the rest of NZ has to allow it.

There will be bases again.

When we walk.

Raises will come.

When we walk.

Anna will be 'promoted" to another role (like Ivan)

When we walk.

and that is going to have to happen sooner than later.

Swine Boss Hogg' is going to be shown.

Please no replies about lack of unity or no one liking expats, that talk isn't helpful.
If you feel that way go into your own corner and sulk.

It's time for all of us to stand up like the Kiwis.

#timetostrike

No bases are not dead. Not officially...

Instead, like the potential for profit share, a future base will be dangled like a carrot for only those that sign the new deal. The threat will be: only if you sign the new COS can you be eligible for a future base ("when they are offered"). If you don't sign you will never be "offered" a future base (you and your current COS will "wither on the vine" in Hong Kong...or words to that effect).

Oh, and if you sign the new deal you will be eligible for future profit share.....if you don't sign...no future profit share for you.

Furthermore, the 13th month bonus will be included in the new reduced pay package. Just like it was in 1999 on the bases. Only in Cathay do they call a pay cut a bonus....

They've done this all before. The only difference this time is that they are heralding the fact that we can do this in a collaborative fashion by taking a seat at the High Performance Engagement table....

The HKAOA needs to walk away from this farce, retain CC and the TB, and come back in two years.

Just read the finding in it's entirety. Only a CX lawyer could have believed they would have stood a chance of winning. Well done to the two plaintiffs. Nice to see them take on the 'beast' and prevail. Sadly, CX will not now accept that treating employees fairly in the first place would be the better corporate policy. They will convince themselves that they have to 'strike' back. Pathetic, they always have been and they always will be. They make bankers look good.

So do they (or any kiwi) now have a compulsory retirement age???

That Frank, is how they work.

I wonder if anyone knows of a Company more involved in law suits against its own employees than Cathay - a once great Airline in complete harmony with it's people? What an utter disgrace they are to any concept of Corporate Governance. As a retiree I now fly with BA when vacationing because I simply can't bear the thought of even remotely contributing to the CX precious "bottom line". Don't be afraid of leaving this sinking ship - there is a good life after Cathay and, if you've got some time in and have a few assets and your kids are grown up, don't tolerate their crap any longer than you need to.
As Trafalger said, the culture at CX is venal and corrosive - don't let them spoil your happiness.
Well done to the Kiwis - what happens to them now?? Reinstatement?? That'll be fun.

No there is no compulsory retirement age in NZ it is against the law for any employer to discriminate on age


Ozziekiwi

That's brilliant! Well done boys, I'm sure there will be lots of NZ slots opening in the very near future. Watch this space for OZ to follow suit with a similar court case..... "I'm ok Jack" comes to mind.

Pot, kettle, black comes to mind.

Poor young Xwind, can't serve his own needs by signing an inferior contract to circumvent the law.

Some people just don't get it nor ever will apparently :ugh:

It is important to remember that this whole mess is because of the way the management elect to manage.

If they really want to gain productively (cost per unit of work performed by employee) then at least halve the pilots should be based - at least from what I hear Jepp have been saying. Will CX do that?.....maybe. But it would mean complying with 1st world laws, not something the Swire pricks like to do.

Agreed, but part of the requirement for continued employment as a pilot is to hold a valid licence. The medical forms part of the licence and HKG CAA won;t issue a Class 1 past 65. So in effect retirement does occur at 65.

Oz is on-shored already. What court case is to follow? You don't seem to have much of a grasp of what is happening in the real world. Maybe too much hair gel.

I agree it's good to get a win over the company but those NZ guys had the chance to sign over but they didn't and agreed to leave at 55 as per the original contract. Now they've been given permission to break that contract and it will probably f### anyone else wanting a base.

why people love to blame the victims?
who is the one breaking the law? who's to be blamed to break the law?
If there is a fault in the contract, why should one sign across to a new contract with diminished terms and conditions to suit the one creating the fault?

An employment contract is bounded to be a betterment or at least the same as per the requirement in the employment ordinance. If the signed contract is of any less than the employment ordinance, it is meant to be corrected. This is not breaking the contract.

Congratz to the guys in nz for winning the court case :D:D:D
and salute to them for standing up to fight for their own entitlement! :ok:

I don't see it as a win over the company. It is simply applying the law of the land. There are costs and benefits to the company as far as bases are concerned.
If they can't compete on the same basis as the local legacy carriers sobeit.

As I mentioned in a previous post virgin and ba salaries for senior pilots are comparable with cx and all the expat benefits have been removed from based crews. So it's "a level playing field" re crew costs.

If that's not workable it would be a pretty sorry result.

Xwindldg,

Maybe this result is the final nail in the coffin of bases. However, that will just be because of the small minded petty thinking that infests Hello Kitty City and should have nothing to do with this result.

What you are forgetting is that every base, apart from NZ, have contracts that are local law compliant. In Cathay language that is expressed as "on-shored". The kiwis still had in their COS that HK law applied. As kiwis tend to be, they were the odd ones out.

So yeah, the Company could spit the dummy and overreact, but it would just be another dumb decision to add to the long list of other dumb decisions....

Oil price dropping- hedge massively against rising oil prices. - doh....
Need 3 man, cancel RPs, get hit with TB, can't do 3 man except 252/253, let LHR base numbers drop so can't even do 252/253, still stuck with TB....doh....
Invest in CMP project, alienate IT staff, alienate pilots, CMP project delayed -doh....
Sign CBA with USAOA, overlook Kincare, try to shaft pilots on A-days, Kincare bites them in the @ss- doh.... Global pilot market tightens, T&Cs start to rise, email all your pilots threatening to cut their T&Cs... Let's see how that works out for them....

Xwingldg, take heed of what some of the senior pilots in this airline are saying. Continue to agree and sign to lesser conditions and you'll only have yourself to blame. Nothing is more annoying than hearing people on a lesser CoS complain when they signed after reading the contract they were offered. Nobody put a gun to your head and you chose to come to Cathay on your own accord - you were not invited.
Clearly you haven't been here long enough.

Shep / Traf- well said :ok:

Long enough to remember how B scale undercut A Scale?

Long enough to know how the A scales were the first to sign an imposed CoS without so much as a whimper.

Yes. It's just like smoking. Back in the 60's, the bad health effects weren't really understood....now, there is no excuse. Same with our contracts: back in the 90's we were pretty naive....now, there is no excuse. Whatever the company tries to 'bribe' the more junior pilots with, they will eventually take away. Either we learn from history or we will continue to descend to the level of an asian LCC. We are pretty close to that point now. All any of you need to focus on is simply this: any concessions from the pilots will mean the dollars taken from you and your families will be put straight into the pockets of our managers. THAT is the reason for the 'grinning idiot' photo every friday.

Love how some guys took a job knowing exactly what the terms of the contract were. A big f*** you to anyone else who might have ever wanted a pay rise.

Only hope the company doesn't use its normal spiteful manner and close the base even though that might be more expensive for those that choose to move back but that might be offset by the few that take redundancy. Time will tell I guess

of course they're closing the base... with new contracts coming, it won't be more expensive for them to move guys to hkg.

Actually
Just passing on a message from a mate
A big FU from all HKG based AOA members who commute for all the jumpseat requests that go nowhere
Especially to the Cantabrian who hands out jumpseats to "better looking "cabin crew .
Awesome Kiwis
The words stingy come to mind ...

maybe they just don't like your mate.

Maybe kiwicx maybe , but is it possible kiwicx cpts dont give a f##k about the rest ? The complaint dont come from one , but quite a few ....
What , dont have the company ipad ?
Anyway who the hell wants to work for cx post 55 anyway ? Goodnight and goodluck !