KA's Parallel Seniority
 

With the mass exodus of KA FOP management to CX city today, and the forthcoming move of all Dragon pilots and cabin crew to check in @ CX city , does this mean that the "Parallel " seniority will be envisaged by the start of 2018?

This scheme, that was first muted a few years ago on the full integration of joint FOP , could now be just around the corner for all concerned.

The parallel scheme, purely voluntary at the moment , proposes that crew keep their current seniority standing in their respective employers, but have the right to join a parallel or ghosting seniority . Its like a one glove fits all senario , but details are scarce.

Additionally, new joiners will be assigned two galaxy IDs to allow parity for future migration into , as yet , undocumented common seniority.

This will be interesting.....

It's like the proverbial elephant in the room - it's been there for a while, but it didn't bother anyone, so nobody did anything about it, other than wondering how the f@ck it got there without anyone really noticing it, but it's getting bigger and probably needs addressing sooner rather than later.

I Suppose the DPA and HKAOA might actually have to acknowledge the others existence and start working together?
Union collaboration and mutual support should have been happening since the day CX gained ownership.

Nice wind up

Yep all a wind up . KA getting equal staff travel prioity , remember that one?

Now all KA crew moving to CX , a wind up?

KA crew to be "integrated" into the CX system, a wind up?

You might be eating your words by the end of 2018 .

So joint seniority - meaning if the next Command course is on a A321, a CX pilot would be eligible? Will said Captain be sitting next to KA FO who is being paid for 8 hours waiting for a slot to Chengdu while Captain is not?

You are looking at this issue in black and white. Its unlikly that CX and KA crews will be mixed up considering their respective different COS .
However, a combined contract, offered to those @ CX&Ka who are willing repeal their current TnC's would level the playing field. They would then be rostered according to their new joint COS.

Think we are still awhile off a joint seniority but as far as flying with different contracts, we do it already in KA with still 3 contracts in effect right now..
I can't see what the issue is if they add another one..

We have ONE seniority list at Cathay yet a junior guy can still trump a senior guy of 25 years to better rosters/fleet.

And they think combining two airlines will work? Yeah OK...

The KA trainers will love to be on the 350.....just watch this space!

I hope not. Not as an industrial weapon.

Our trainer membership in the DPA is beyond 90% - higher for what's left of management believe it or not. In fact, some guys are only in the training department because of their DPA involvement. We have quite the club over here at KA. Perhaps the party is over?

After KA has been intergrated, it'll been the intergration of LD.

From a CMP perspective, the integration(s) make sense. From a contractual perspective???

CX and KA do not get EQUAL staff travel benefits, KA get BETTER travel benefits, something the DPA negotiated behind the back of every CX pilot.

KA pilots gets paid more than CX pilots, have better benefits, and are more expensive and are less productive.

CX and KA share the same terminal as well, the same runways, etc fact that KA will be housed inside CX city means nothing. It is just sharing office space, KA guys are salivating at the bit and making rumors up.

Under CAD 360 each AOC holder must have its own briefing room. Each AOC holder MUST have their OWN pilots, you cannot "lead" pilots from one AOC holder to the other, they physically have to be inducted into the other AOC. That is exactly what has happened before when CX managers went to KA, when KA pilots came to CX (they had to do another conversion course, emergency procedures, line checks etc). Same happened when CX SO went to KA to do their FO upgrades.

Fact is that CX wanted to have no dispatch area at all (they closed it during SARS as a cost savings), they wanted everyone to go straight to the aircraft (which CX trialed this years on a number of flights) as running the security clearance at CX city and KA house costs millions . They have reduced that now by having CX/KA share the same security screening. HKIA said they could not accept crews going straight to the aircraft for the foreseeable future due to T2 being demolished and T1 going into over load.

Do you know that the CX benefits center is being moved to KA house ? and all they will have in CX city is computer terminals for staff to interact with ? They are making it harder for staff to access benefits to reduce costs.

Everything is about reducing costs, not improving things for staff.

Still full of crap Fooey.

Would you mind letting me know the details are so we can start using this 'better deal' please?

Or let's do your Australia flying in exchange for China and see where your efficiencies lead to. And what kind of an industrial campaign has you so efficient btw?

The local contract is fast becoming dominant at KA. Our aircraft are being rapidly crewed in both seats in this manner. Is this the contract that is far superior to CX? Apples and oranges eh.

You having a travel fund and giving us same priority on your chengdu vs our sydney is not the same...

The dwindling amount of guys on KA B scale had to pay for the privilege of you now having priority to CTU. :hmm:

Can someone tell me, is a CX contract really worse that a KA Standard Contract ( no housing ) ? The KA Standard Contract is fast becoming dominant. Every command, every new joiner and at the same time, we have noticeable attrition from the KA B Scale.

It just sounds like some CX pilots with their half-assed industrial campaign are trying to blame others for lack of results.

Thats true who wants to go to Sydney?😂

Not me. I love pandas!

CAD360 Part One Chapter 3 Subsection 4

Office space at each operating base must be sufficient to provide a suitable working environment for the number of operating staff employed. Adequate provision must be made for the traffic staff, for operational planning, for the storage and display of essential records, and for flight planning facilities for flight crews. If suitable flight planning facilities for flight crews are provided by the airport authority, the space provided by the operator can normally be reduced. However, it is essential that reasonable accommodation should be made available for crews to use before and between flights. A secluded area should be available to commanders for briefing and de-briefing of their crew.


CAD360 Part One Chapter 4 Subsection 4.12

Operators should draw to the attention of flight crew that, in accordance with the provisions of the AN(HK)O, it is the responsibility of each flight crew member to notify anyone who employs his services as a flight crew member, of all flying he has undertaken within the previous 28 days, other than flying in an aircraft not exceeding 1600 kg maximum weight and not flying for the purpose of public transport or aerial work.


I sacrificed my movie rest over the pacific to find that information for you! Before you say anything, I've already checked.... CAD360 doesn't state each operator must have their own crew control, Engineering and IOC. Please stop disseminating fake news.

Ask the CX 'Super B' fellows about their Travel Fund, they didn't sign any new CX contracts and still have their travel funds.

Amazing you fellows think this way ! Go as ask the AOA about your travel fund and if you don't remember it you are not in CX long enough to have had one, it was sold down the river when you were in nappies

Super B's only kept their travel fund if they didn't sign on to COS '08. Not many left.

So we have a management stooge in our midst, signing up to a new handle ?

Talk about "fake news", I didnt mention CC, IOC, or engineering, but since you did, each AOC is required to have its own engineering department. The Head of Engineering is one of the positions listed on the KA AOC that needs to be approved by HKCAD before its changed or appointed. The AOC requirements for engineering are list in CAD 360 Part 2, "Arrangements for Maintenance Support". KA has its own Head of Engineering, Kevin Chan. He is the person responsible under the KA AOC for the airworthiness of the KA fleet. How aircraft are physically maintained pushed back etc does not need to be done in house by KA, but the ultimate airworthiness control (including ETOPS) and service agreements rest with KA under their AOC.

IOC and Crew Operations are not required functions to be in house under the AOC, there are other ways that can be achieved. Some of the 11 HKG AOC holders don't have them at all. Crew operations could be a call center in some remote country.

What I did say "Under CAD 360 each AOC holder must have its own briefing room." CAD 360 says this has to be done by each operator. It is an AOC requirement.

"Office space at each operating base must be sufficient to provide a suitable working environment for the number of operating staff employed. Adequate provision must be made for the traffic staff, for operational planning, for the storage and display of essential records, and for flight planning facilities for flight crews. If suitable flight planning facilities for flight crews are provided by the airport authority, the space provided by the operator can normally be reduced. However, it is essential that reasonable accommodation should be made available for crews to use before and between flights. A secluded area should be available to commanders for briefing and de-briefing of their crew."

Operator means AOC holder, i.e. CAD 360 " For the purpose of this publication the term Operator is used to describe both Applicants and Certificate Holders"

"Each AOC holder MUST have their OWN pilots"

"It will be necessary for operators to satisfy the Director that they have a sufficient number of aircraft crews for the operations to be undertaken. The adequacy of the aircraft crews will not be assessed against a set formula, as there will clearly be a wide variation in requirements according to particular circumstances. In certain cases where the volume of work undertaken is small, the normal requirement concerning the number of aircraft crews employed may be relaxed. It is important that aircraft crews should generally be employed full-time under a contract of service. "

"The employment of part-time or "freelance" aircraft crew will only acceptable in exceptional circumstances and in consultation with the assigned Operations Inspector. Irrespective of whether crews are part-time or full-time employees, tests carried out to establish the competence of the operators pilots, must be conducted either by the operator himself or by another operator under arrangements set out in detail in the operators Training Manual. These arrangements must ensure that the pilot is competent to perform all the duties and responsibilities laid upon him by the operator."

Again, the word operator means AOC holder, two AOCs you have to perform two different processes that have to approved by two different CAD inspectors. Per CAD 360 "In this Part, the word ‘must’ is used to indicate where the Director expects the Operator to respond and adhere closely to the defined requirement."

hkfooey,

Each airline must have its own pilots. That's true.

But this conversation is about seniority lists. There is no requirement for an airline in Hong Kong to have a seniority list just as there is no requirement as to how many seniority lists any one airline may have. (Just look at what's going on with base opportunities and who is eligible for them)

Hypothetically, CX and KA will get to choose their pilots from a combined list. It would be a requirement for any pilot to join that company in exactly the same way CX based pilots resign from CPA when they take a base and sign on with the based entity. Yet they remain on the common seniority list. That may mean a new contract, it may not. Those above the Y intersection would have the choice to stay or move, but those below would be moved between companies (resigning and re-joining as required) as per the company requirements.

Which complies with the AOC just as the current basing arrangement does.

Not sure i'm understanding this correctly. Are you suggesting that CX could close a base and some/all of the pilots could be required to return to HK and join KA on a A320...?

You heard it here first Traf.

You lads are a laugh !

Who cares. Load of tosh. As long as transfer my salary, Schooling, Travel Fund, 13th month, Overtime, the occasional G day payment for parking after 11.31pm into a G etc they I will navigate their wagons through the sky.

When it stops I, like others will be gone

...and mangement will be happy to replace you with a cheaper pilot.

Pilots have been signing inferior contracts for some 20 years, with the introduction of the B-scale (and the start of the rot).

Sorry I am not the one who needs to be educated here. KA pilots signed up for what they got, and obviously they are not happy with it. Any sort of joint seniority list does not in any way permit a pilot to fly for both AOCs, CAD will only let pilots work for both airlines at the same time.

Going back to what Krone said in the first post "This scheme, that was first muted a few years ago on the full integration of joint FOP , could now be just around the corner for all concerned."

You and I both know each airline has to have its own pilots, there is no chance of a "full integration of joint FOP". There is no benefit in having KA pilots retrain at CX, it adds nothing but cost. The cost of training them into CX, and the cost of replacing them at KA. They may as well just recruit a cheaper pilot off the street and do one set of training to fill one slot.

You and I know the company is driven by the dollar, the idea has no chance of getting a guernsey. Kones opening post is sophistry.

I hope you are right . The thought of no integration makes my day.

Nobody I know at KA with balanced shoulders has any interest in being a CX pilot.

Even our young 200 hr cadets are wise beyond their years- no interest in CX.

You're full of it Gnads!
There's hundreds of guys at KA, who, if given a sniff at a CX basing, would sell both their grandmothers.
Whether or not CX basings ever open again in meaningful numbers, is a different story - but trust me, both grandmothers would be sold.

I don't think its a mater of if one pilot group would like to fly the other, I personally don't give a rats where or what I fly, its more about the contract. (that I signed a long time ago and would like to keep)

I agree with what hkgfooey said, there is no advantage for cx to merge the lists, just an expensive pointless exercise.

If they wanted to move crews around they can do it on secondment, many other airlines do this, but even so, why rob Peter to pay Paul.
Both airlines are short on crew.

Base Vacancy

In you're own words there are no bases . So I'm still confident in suggesting there's little interest from KA in CX.

Years ago Richard and Jeffrey , CX seconded pilot managers had hurt feelings at the lack of interest in CX by KA pilots when offered transfers.

I think you guys are jealously guarding a turd 💩

Base Vacancy? Why not call yourself Rocking Horse ****. Both monikers share the same prevalence of occurring in the wild: 2/5ths of 80% of fark all.

Sure, there are guys that would take a base at KA. There are also guys that would take half roster for double pay but why deal in fantasy? The splatter marks of spit on L2 are still on the glass from when Dick Hall and DJ Jazzy Geoff were met with the....?dozen? applications to transfer to CX. The offer was made to all KA pilots, some 400+ at the time.

'Jealously guarding a turd' is the most apt description I've heard. I only ever applied to KA because I didn't want what CX offered. Long haul, eternity to command and a frosty cockpit environment aren't for me.

Would I take a little less China and a little more Japan? Sure. But I don't get to cherry pick. I had to pick one or the other and all that comes with them: the good, the bad and the ugly.

If I had a do-over, I'd still choose exactly the same way.

As for HKPhooey, you really have to build a bridge. If you invested the same energy into your current employer as you do your former (plural), you may not have so many of the latter.

wtf....unintelligible.

Perhaps KA are going to finally start that SYD service and put some KA guys on a base down there? Should be some room for based KA pilots now that CX has just reduced the numbers in SYD!

TT...

I have read your post twice and have no clue... no clue...other than KA gave you a job and CX didn't..
JY