Typhoon Meranti
 

I have a question especially for the CX guys.
In the last couple of days a severe typhoon passed just south of Taiwan and across the Taiwan Straits into China.
It wreaked havoc in parts of Taiwan, and again in coastal south China. It is being reported as a record breaker, and certainly the strongest typhoon of 2016.

Fortunately for me I wasn't flying during it, but I did have a look at what was going on in the airspace around Taiwan during the height of the storm.
Here's an image I took of the weather radar returns shown on the Taiwan Government Met website;

https://s11.postimg.org/pzgmgxi7n/Typhoon_Meranti.jpg

As you can see the eye is centred right in the middle of the Strait at the time the image was taken. Effectively blocking the airways from HKG toward TPE and beyond. Deviating west of it into China airspace is of course impossible, and the weather to the east of the eye is even worse by the look of it (RCKH had 500M in heavy rain and gusts of 99kts).

The Sigmet Chart for Meranti shows 'embedded TS up to FL520'.
You don't overfly that.

I then took a look at the Flight Radar App.
Much to my amazement there was a pretty steady stream of aircraft passing straight up the Taiwan Strait, right into the storm. A majority of these aircraft were CX flights. Wow. I was really surprised.

I later got a hold of the PIREPs for the route over this period. There were 13 listed PIREPS from 0930Z on the 13th to 1210Z on the 14th with reports of MOD TURB, MOD ICING, and one SEV TURB report. The PIREPS came from EVA Air, United, China Airlines, FEDEX, AHK, JAL and the SEV TURB was reported by Air Busan. Not a pipsqueak from a CX flight.:bored:

Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these aircraft (including CX) flying through a tracked and mapped severe typhoon? What did they expect to happen? Do pilots in this region treat typhoons with disdain? Why fly into something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your aircraft and passengers (and - more so - the cabin crew)?
I keep reading how CX guys are p'd off with the company, and on a 'work to rule' at present. Does CX not have a rule forbidding flight into severe weather?
I'm not trying to get at you guys - I'd put my life in the hands of CX crews any day - but I'm just trying to get my head around this behaviour. Is it 'big brass balls syndrome' or what?
Why do it?
Will your employer back you up if things go pear shaped?

I have a question, especially for the brain surgeons.

In the last couple of days my Dad was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease.
It's wreaked havoc with his coordination, his ability to accomplish menial tasks such as eating, dressing and wiping his arse.

Fortunately for me I don't suffer from it yet, but I did have a look at what was going on, on YouTube and other such websites, showing the implant of electrodes for Deep Brain Stimulation.

Anyhow, my question is this; why were all these surgeons (including yourselves) hooking a cellphone battery into someones brain? What did they expect to happen? Do surgeons in this region treat the human brain with disdain? Why do something which you really should know is going to risk the safety of your patient?

----

Kindly forgive the crude manner in which I've edited the OP's post. As I'm not a brain surgeon, will never be a brain surgeon and I sure as **** can't learn how to be a brain surgeon on YouTube.

No, I'm just a pilot. Wishing that people would let the professionals in their field, and that's *any* professional field, apply their training, qualifications and experience to their #@$%ing job without being second guessed/challenged by any wing nut with a smart phone and an internet connection.

Hallelujah Mouse maid. Hallelujah.
I was airborne during yesterday's wx and landed in Taipei at the tail end of it's landfall. Non event really. Why ? Because we briefed accordingly, had even been trained appropriately, and got on with it. And didn't treat it with disdain. And the company gave us all the options wrt fuel. Hold for an hour, divert if need be back to HK.
Google experts. W@nkers. The same prats that instantly post on facetube, whatsyou, and fannygram the instant anything happens from the cabin without bothering to get the facts.

It's called being a Pilot mate.

Yes I knew there was a typhoon located there, yes I fully briefed the cabin crew on the expected weather and how to deal with the cabin service they had planned, yes I informed the Pax it may be a little bumpy.

I'm sure you are aware that we have a very expensive weather radar in the nose of my multi million dollar Jet which I'm trained to use. There was only occasional light moderate turbulence on the airway to Taipei yesterday and it wasn't too bad. Certainly I didn't go anywhere near a CB or get any icing at all, in fact for a fair bit of the way we were not even in cloud at FL370.

We don't just blunder along with our eyes closed. Maybe CATHAY Aircraft used there training and experience to avoid the bad parts and therefore didn't need to submit any PIREPS about Turbulence or Severe Icing.

Do you think that this was the first Typhoon that CATHAY Pilots have ever seen or indeed flown over or around? :D

We don't just sit up there with out eyes closed hoping for the best . :ok:

Typhoons are often surprisingly smooth to fly through at altitude.
Mind the increasing temps near the center with the decreased performance of the aircraft that accompanies.
Do be careful when landing or taking off in an area that's affected by a typhoon.
Take lots of gas and take few chances.
HKG pilots are pretty well accustomed to typhoons, don't worry.

Oh FFS, haha! You CX guys are so damned thin skinned! Even just a query gets you right on the defensive. Should've known better than mention the dreaded CX even in a general way.

Don't like the idea of public scrutiny? Feel threatened by the Internet hoardes? Here's news for you - it's a fact of life. The public want to know.
How do you manage to live with the imposition of twice yearly Sim Checks? And those impudent Instructors questioning your every decision?!
Hey, if you want some 'privacy' maybe you're in the wrong business. Maybe you should indeed be doing brain surgery instead. Go for it!

Oasis, you made an attempt at a reasonable answer. Well done. However your response doesn't entirely satisfy. At planning stage, how do you know what any particular typhoon will be like? If the Sigmet says 'embedded CBs to FL520' what makes you so sure you can avoid them? WX radar, fine. But we're talking an area of potentially concentrated CBs which may be impossible to find a way through. Most OM-As tell us to avoid CBs by at least 20nm, and to completely circumnavigate areas of concentrated CB activity (like in a major typhoon), so what makes you so certain it's safe to launch into it?

Besides that, you mention rising temps - yes, which means lowering stall margins and quite possibly an ECAM message that you're above your max crz level and you must descend - into the clag. Most guidance tells us never to try to outclimb CBs, and only fly over one if able to clear it by several thousand feet. Are we to ignore these directions?

Worst of all is the real horror scenario of an eng fail or pressurisation loss while over the storm. Now you're going down into the thick of it - with a serious emergency already on your hands.

In my opinion it is reckless beyond justification to take a flight into this kind of environment, and it seems (from the comments above) that a certain cadre of twits are raring to do it based only on some gung-ho macho man assumptions.

Algol - you've had your answer. If you don't accept what Oasis and ACMS said - who cares. We've been doing this , in this region, for a long time.
Now - learn some manners and respect and go away!

Hi guys...

I have been following the conversation and I could not stand it. As far as I read, Algol just posted a question about pilot reaction against a wx phenomena and also myself as a commercial pilot normally get irritated flying during a typhoon.

However, most of you guys did not even give a satisfactory answer to Algol and even insulted him. Hard to understand... Very unprofessional posts regarding the topic and nobody can insult to another like that...

Sorry to take your time arrogants...

Algol,
You need to go back to your wether manual and you will realize most of the Typhoon is lower levels and can fly over the top of most of it except a few cb's embedded.

Algol

Flying from Hong Kong to Taipei, if the weather conditions became unsafe to proceed, can you think of one really simple way to avoid flying through a line of impenetrable CBs?

Flying in, and around a Typhoon, to a destination with a pretty benign TAF is no big deal.

Hugo.

Or you could just do what our HKA and HKE "colleagues" were doing yesterday. And just fly right through obvious cells.
Not a question of arrogance, nor hubris. The original poster implied we plough on regardless. We don't. Not saying we're infallible. We're not. However proper training and exposure go a long way to alleviating the risk.
And is you have the misfortune to deprex or engine failure in to one, then it really isn't your day, is it. ?

Algol,

In 20+ years of flying in this region, I am yet to see a typhoon that could not be safely traversed at higher levels. The forecasts always look dire, but most of the seriously bad weather is concentrated in the lower parts of the storm. We don't see long, impenetrable lines of Cbs in these storms. The weather radar does a good job of showing the areas that should be avoided and it is normally quite easy to find a way through. Sometimes it's even quite smooth! The biggest problem is caused by the increase in temperature near the centre of the storm. I certainly wouldn't want to be flying near rec max, for the reasons stated in previous posts. That said, even lower levels around FL310-ish don't normally present a problem wrt the weather.

I can assure you we don't take undue risks and we certainly don't treat these things with disdain.

As for engine failure - it is about balance of risk. Another time that an engine failure puts you in deep deep doo doo is on take-off. But rather than deciding each and every take-off is reckless, and deciding to cancel the flight, pilots tend to train for it, and review what they will do in the (rare) event of an engine out.

Maybe that is macho and reckless, but without it, you are taking the boat. (and a boat into a typhoon has a much worse time of it - they don't have the speed to react and get out of the way if need be)

Me thinks the arrogance displayed on here will unfortunately bite us one day.

Is it arrogance or is it just accepting that weather is part and parcel of our job and you make sensible decisions with the cards you are dealt on the day. Maybe I've been lucky but I've flown regionally for almost two decades and never got close to severe turbulence or moderate icing or had windshear that has done anything more than trigger a monitor radar display! Sure, some challenging approaches but when sensibly handled, nothing to write home about. All a bit dull and boring really, just as it should be.

Don't confuse arrogance with a deep rooted respect for Mother Nature and many of us being a product of training machines that taught us how to make good sensible decisions and have the courage to follow through with them.

Yesterday...... Manageable, I think so.

SUNDOWN::----We've all answered his question more than adequately on how we deal with this kind of weather. He came in here all guns blazing with a childish post saying that Cathay Aircraft blundered right through the middle of a super Typhoon and then we had the stupidity not to file PIREPS after we most certainly had the crap beaten out of us and our poor unsuspecting passengers,and cabin crew. Really??

This kind of weather is our bread and butter, if we can't understand how to cope with it then we'd better not fly anywhere near Asia.

It does not present any particular problem if dealt with professionally. Which we all did on the day as did countless other Airlines.

ALGOL:---- mate really? You were there on the day were you? You're an expert in flying around Asia in all kinds of weather in an A330 or 777 are you?

Look at the radar picture posted above and you'll clearly see the en route weather didn't present any problems at all. If it did present a big problem then what's to stop you from doing a 180 and going home? Nothing.
Please stick to Flight Sim buddy........because I seriously doubt you've ever been in command of anything bigger than a C-152....:=

Now can we stop the b.s.:ugh:

CRWKUNT ROLL:---nice photo of the weather, we went through about an hour later and it was the same, diverted only 15 nm left.....

Algol has form...that's why he gets flamed. Seem to recall his visage some time back sitting in front of a large FS setup in Mongkok.

The arrogant and self righteous attitude that comes from some of you CX guys is astounding. Sitting next to you guys on the bus is hard enough, let alone hours on a flight deck listening to how amazing you are and how no one else knows what they're doing. Gods gift to aviation, bless you all.

I flew over it twice. Wasn't too bad. There was a bit of weather at altitude but it tended to be in bands that could be easily avoided. I belted everyone up but the turbulence was light. To be honest I have found most typhoons are fine at altitude ( wholly different beast at lower levels). I find running into the thick continuous line of huge CBs of the ITCZ much more daunting. The ITCZ gets treated with the utmost respect.

Oh for goodness sake ECAM 321.......get that chip on your shoulder checked mate, it may be malignant.

I've been held down at FL236 (7,200m) flying up the coast of China through a typhoon. It was one of the smoothest flights I can ever recall doing.. not a ripple in the 'cruise' despite there being over 100kts of wind. At the destination one band of the typhoon was passing over with a spectacular thunderstorm so we just held for 20 mins until it blew away then there was no more than light turbulence and rain.

What else do you expect? It's obvious CX pilots are the only ones that have the necessary training and ability to successfully fly through a typhoon.
The newspapers today must be full of stories about terrified pax, injured cabin crew and bent aircraft from flying through all those nasty obvious cells.

Angol

You were the clown who posted that thread on D&G about the CNS 15 EO SID you guys use at Hong Kong airlines.

You gave me a lecture about SOPs. You come from the same circus that find it impossible to use the turning node on 15.

Now you are the clown asking a question is it possible for an aircraft to cruise in an area of high winds. Aircraft the world over do that every day.

You the same clown that asked about the forecast embedded CBs and turbulence. Every sigwx chart for Asia will have some on it every day.

We use the Wx radar to make taticical course changes to avoid it. If it gets bumpy we make sure everyone has a seatbelt on.

SWH:---- where's the like button in here? :ok:

Well its obvious I posted this discussion in the wrong forum. It should have been posted in Tech Log, where a more sane level of exchange generally tends to occur.
I mistakenly posted it in FH thinking there was some expertise and (perhaps) wisdom on the subject from people flying in this region. Instead all I see is pathetic willy waving and puerile defensiveness.

Not one of you has backed up any of your arrogant proclamations with an ounce of evidence - a link, a reference, a scientific justification. In fact there's barely even any recognition that there's the remotest risk involved, or that there's any method to your madness.

It seems that the mere mention of CX in anything but reverential whispers brings on the red mist for most of you.
Your paranoia is sadly misplaced however, what you read as an insult to CX crews was nothing of the sort - it was a factual observation from the PIREPs posted on the day. The fact you took that to be insulting was your own insecurities showing through.

With all the disgust and dislike of your own company that you CX guys vent here every day it seems highly schizophrenic that you jump so fast to its defence at the merest hint of a slight - oooh, by an 'outsider' (circle the wagons!). Several of your colleagues have PM'd me to say they are embarrassed by your behaviour.

At the end of the day, my take on it is that you don't indeed know WHY or IF its safe to fly over any given typhoon. You have in reality simply been forced to do so because you were ordered to by your Flight Planners, and rather than stand up to them and demand a re-route, you followed orders from an office boy and drove your aircraft straight up the muzzle of the loaded gun. Maybe you got away with it by pure luck, and like to brag about it now. But it was really just luck, not skill. One day the luck always runs out.

I'm totally re-thinking my previous belief in the basic common sense of CX pilots.

No algol. You have clearly some kind of aviation background and are trying to second guess lot of professionals about something you probably don't understand but you are so arrogant that you don't even like the few answers you got.

Algol: Your initial query was about transitting the eye of a typhoon at altitude. The ride can in fact be surprisingly smooth - by definition the eye is calm. I clearly recall one flight I did over the top of a typhoon where the radar return could have been in a text book yet the ride was smooth. In addition, in that part of the world the TAT below 20,000ft is in excess of +10C so icing is not a problem. All the typhoon issues are at low level with torrential rain bands and large wind shears - but that was not what you were enquiring about! As for your presumptions as to how CX crews are "ordered" to fly are fancifull and quite ludicrous.

Algol----I don't know who you are, you appear to be with HKA? Therefore I hope that you have some form of experience as a Pilot in Asia, how much experience I don't know but from you posts I feel not too much.

Mate, I flew to TPE the other day, as I said we managed somehow with the grace of god I guess !! to actually arrive in TPE without penetrating any bad weather, without picking up any ICE, without having to submit any PIREPS, without flying within 40 nm of any Red returns in the Radar, without anything more than light Turbulence

This we managed to do quite safely and easily, wow all this all using the systems my A330 has.

Yes I knew from pre flight planning the Typhoon was quite large, I knew it was close to my track, I carried enough fuel to have HKG +80 as an Alternate and was quite prepared to fly 200 nm off track if need be.

What else would you have us do?

Run away from all the weather in Asia? Have you ever flown through the ITCZ? Do you know what the ITCZ is?

stop being a dick.

ACMS

The guy is a HK-based FS troll not HKA. Let him go to the tech forum.

Some of the folk have tried to answer his questions but he has chosen to ignore them.

No more oxygen required.

Ok.......:ok:

Algol,
We're not being arrogant. We're just telling you that flying through a typhoon at height isn't a big deal. It just isn't. It's a simple fact!

If you were asking about landing in typhoon conditions, you'd be getting very different answers as that is a very big deal!

I sense you have a bit of a problem with CX as none of the posts before are Willy-waving in the slightest. Get over it!

Algol

This is dumbed down enough for even arts degree graduate to understand.

How DO planes fly in hurricanes but not thunderstorms? Computer simulation explains phenomenon - Mirror Online

Algol started this thread with legitimate questions about flying in and around typhoons. Questions I myself had before operating in this region.

The point from all this is that no matter what is to be discussed there is a narcissistic attitude of self belief that comes from the CX guys, which offends them even to be asked a question, which might or might not question there decisions. I heard Agol and heard a good question. The CX guys heard a questioning of there descions and ability and went on the offensive.

Luckily this attitude is being weeded out with relentless CRM courses and eventually the SOs & JFOs at CX might eventually be allowed to ask these sort of questions with out fear, of ridicule.

You back again, still with that chip on your shoulder too....:D

I'll spell it out to you once again so even a child could understand.
He came in here all guns blazing suggesting we were ignorant fools flying into Meranti placing ourselves, the cabin crew and pax in danger AND we didn't even once file a PIREP he thinks was necessary.
That kind of loaded question may just incite a response!!

Do you understand why we answered the way we did now?

Ok......now sod off

"I'm not trying to get at you guys - I'd put my life in the hands of CX crews any day". AGOl quote.

Unfortunately ACMS I won't sod off. Reasonable question and train of thought, unreasonable response from Aholes like your self. It's the manner in which you approach matters that is most irritating, not the matter it's self.

Probably too much hot air.

It really comes down to:

Exposure - personally 30+ years flying above/around/through! Typhoons. Sometimes up to 3x in a day.

Risk management - knowing the potential threats and mitigating the them.

Disclaimer - I too am a CX pilot. We do not have a monopoly on common sense, nor are we infallible. However, typhoons pretty much come with the job.

I would have thought it obvious that in order to get to the centre of a typhoon it is implied you must pass through the surrounding bands of TS. Do you have another way? Dieing to hear it.
Orbital re-entry perhaps?

Jeez, there's that fragile arrogance again.
God forbid ANYONE would ever 'order' a CX pilot to do anything! You only ever do whatever pleases you, of course. The royal prerogative!
Seriously? Flying lessons from The Mirror? This gets more bizarre by the minute.

Maybe you should tell that to the Air Busan crew who encountered severe turbulence in that typhoon. Tell the 13 crews who made turbulence PIREPS that its smooth as a babies arse when you fly it (cos you're super dooper and they're tossers naturally).

OK, here's another question for you. You are flight planned to fly through a Typhoon, no big deal you say, plow on.
But there's a re-route option with clear air. Which path do you take?
You talk about 'mitigating risk' and 'using the radar etc' - so do you consider both those routings to be equally viable? If so - and you encounter something nasty, can you say you exercised appropriate risk mitigation? The answer is no, you didn't, just in case you still don't get it.

Ecam321, thanks for trying to talk them down off their high horses, but it's futile.

Interesting. Last time there was a typhoon over Taiwan I flew to Taipei when it had mostly cleared off, but some trailing CB activity required deviations. Around ENVAR there was a bunch of huge active CBs (nighttime, lots of lightning and solid radar returns). I took a 30NM deviation to the RIGHT to avoid.
The CX flight coming behind me chose 20 LEFT. Probably looked the shorter route on his ND.
After a few minutes he came on again asking for another 10 left. The Taiwanese ATC'er refused the deviation because of the proximity to China airspace. They asked him to deviate right. But it was too late, no longer possible. So the CX hero had driven himself into a blind alley. His continued pleadings for a further 10 left were made in a very tremulous voice.

A good ships Captain may believe in his abilities, but he never loses respect for the sea.
Unfortunately too many pilots these days are far too complacent, and over confident in their (and their ships) abilities.

Algol: You seem to be suggesting that it is not possible to transit the outer bands of a typhoon using normal wx radar techniques then you go on to describe you doing exactly that on your flight to Taipei! Plenty of people have told you that overflying the eye of a typhoon can in fact be smooth but you seem to disbelieve them. Is your real gripe with CX crews that they haven't filed turb. reports like you think they should? Are you also claiming that the only aircraft to fly the route were CX ones at that time. Has it never occured to you that turbulence level reports are subjective. By the way, it is not arrogant to state how things are normally conducted in airline operations. Does your flight planning department "order you to fly specific routes" with no deviation. I suspect not.
As to my bono fides I have listed my HK licence number to give you a small hint at my own exposure to these conditions.