3 man to Europe
 

AT has been in her position for a few months now, it would appear that the honeymoon is well and truly over . They have revealed their true intent and want 3 man to FRA and LHR on SELECTED flights only
That will be the beginning . As sure as the sun rises in the east they will be back for more in a few short months , or there will be an amendment to RP granting them the freedom to make any European flight 3 man due to unforeseen circumstances.

This is the problem when you have a DFO who has never flown an aircraft , goes to bed every night at a regular time , gets a good nights sleep and works during the day . She has absolutely no concept of the effects of accumulative sometimes crippling fatigue that we live with month after month .
To the best of my knowledge , I don't think she has ever tried to understand rostering patterns and the fatigue they generate .

So here is a challenge . Pick a three week period , You sit in the J/S on every flight you take . You may sleep when the relief FO has their rest period ,all other times you are to be awake and working. Flights are to be conducted on East and West ULH Patterns and in that 3 weeks you are to complete a minimum of 90 hours
Then let's see how tired you become and how fatigue affects your judgement bearing in mind that this is only for 3 weeks not years
Then we can resume negotiations on RP

Ever heard of controlled rest? They're counting on it.. So we use it, put in ASRs and let the smart people deal with the consequences. Yes, it reduces our safety factor slightly... We accept that or take or desk job. Such is the way of the world. Otherwise one is urinating against the prevailing breeze.

You want to use controlled rest on Y1 . I don't

She's just doing what she's told.

Absolutely "Cathay' way to solve a crewing problem. That's the hub of it.

Day time flights if both ways HKG time could be some justification. At night - not good

Whose "day time"???

What a complete farce. We already have some of the most fatiguing rostering practices in the industry, and AT seems to think that making them worse is a clever idea. Well, I for one have had enough. Play that game and I will do everything in my power to 'mitigate' those practices, and manage my own lifestyle accordingly. Secondly, they will see themselves saving about at least 15% on crewing costs if they migrate to 3-man on many long haul flights. In other words, their 4% pay 'offer' is actually a pay cut when you factor in our increased productivity. To the AOA, STOP (!!) talking to these people, and instead focus all your efforts on a public relations campaign highlighting the appalling safety aspects of this company's policies. Tell CX that we are ramping up industrial action up to and including a work stoppage. I don't care anymore. There is NO career left here if we don't stop them now.

Very worrying times. There is a lethal , toxic combination of lowering experience and increasing fatigue on the flight deck. Expect no protection from either the regulator or the company- neither have to work under these practises. The inevitable consequence of this trend will be an incident resulting in harm to pilots and passengers. If you think that you will be fatigued on a flight, then do not operate it. You have a duty of care to yourself, your licence and the travelling public.

Kenfoggo. You are of course correct in saying we shouldn't operate if fatigued, but more importantly, we MUST stop them replacing RP's with 'company policy'. If we allow our already pathetic protections to be washed away, they will literally burn each of us out, and then throw us away when we can no longer physically cope with the job. In all the years i've been here, I have never felt quite motivated enough to down tools. Now, I realise that that is probably the ONLY thing we should be planning on. They will NOT stop attacking us until we finally say enough, and by saying enough, I mean crippling the operation until they see sense. I am NOT voting for the fake pay raise, and I am not giving in until they finally start treating us with respect. Usually the only way to gain respect is through strength and credibility. We can only demonstrate that by an absolutist view of CC. To all of you who are still sitting on the fence, what will it finally take to make your realise that your very career is at stake. If we don't win this battle, there will not be a career worth keeping here. It will all be worthless in the long term. You will waste whatever further years you desperately try hanging onto. Either fight to the death now, or pack up and go home and start a career with an airline that will properly respect you over the years you dedicate to them. This bunch are contemptible, and we must stop them in their tracks now. Before it's too late. Vote NO on the pay 'raise' :yuk: and throw AT's hollow words right back at her.

Gentlemen,
Will you please learn from your colleagues in Cabin Crew, and get professional with your grievances?
Get professional legal and PR advice. Use the Labour Department as an intermediary, as FAU have done.
Define the issues. Address them individually. Have a strategy.
Set a timescale for agreement or resolution.
Contract Compliance should be the norm in any employment relationship. Very seldom does an employer go beyond his contractual obligations in remunerating you for your contribution to his business.
Sign on as rostered. Use whatever sanctions you can to leverage your position. Given issues of schedule delays, resulting fatigue, stress, sickness potentially affecting both Flight Crew and Cabin Crew, this gives the Captain considerable scope and ultimate total responsibility for the safety of the flight. Commander’s Discretion should seldom be used to extend duties.
Best wishes, as ever.

BA and VS do it!
 

I don't know about other airlines but I do know that BA and VS do three man to LHR. So what is the problem with CX doing it too?

GMEDX

BA/VS have a 48/72 hours down route between sectors.

CX do it 4 crew with a short stay, normally around 20 hours in the hotel before returning. 3 crew flights will miss a sleep during the sector, and then the time down route will be too short to recover from that missed sleep, let alone then next sleep.

Its an accountants dream, until all the crew start going sick, humans cannot sustain that, that is why BA/VS have the longer down route stay.

Same at AF/KLM. If CX think that for one second we can do 3 man with short layover, me think sickness rate will go through the roof DOWN ROUTE!

Thanks for the explanation swh. It makes more sense now.

My understanding is that CX would have to give us 48 hours in the hotel. This would seem to negate the man power savings from the resultant 3 crew operations, so it seems to me like a huge waste of time.

Correct.

They're just kicking the can down the road and it's going to prove a massive own goal in the end :ugh:

Flying Clog,

Other than for the fact that BA and VS make it work!

If they do it to based crews, they can roster 3-crew with little rostering change. Many based crews have a EXB in HKG anyway. In LHR, S/Os have been getting longer patterns than Captains and F/Os most of the time so they are already meeting the requirement of the 3-man crew. I do not think it is a coincidence that the two cities mentionned for the 3-man crew are the only two European cities with bases.

European airlines don't fly only eastbound sectors, you have the chance to mitigate fatigue with different patterns.......