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Originally Posted by Epsomdog
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Originally Posted by deptrai I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for people to consider facts of a particular incident, as a long as the laws/rules are silly. Flight attendants and passengers keep getting injured by heavy hand luggage falling out of overhead bins. This is a real, not an imaginary threat. Now what if someone intentionally swings their 15 kilo hardshell hand luggage at your head? Then there are the hundreds of glass bottles pax are carrying. Oxygen tanks and fire extinguishers could also make formidable weapons. The on-board cutlery, chopsticks, fire axes, etc etc, it's all well known. I'm not saying we should ban all that, just like I think it's (barely) fair to allow engineers on duty around the aircraft to have access to a spanner. How about if some malicious terrorist fuel truck driver would speed out onto a runway in just the wrong moment...can you imagine the disaster? But according to current rules, some yoghurt carried by a pilot is getting more attention. How many have actually been hurt by a yoghurt? Let's just face it, there are nonsensical elements in the ongoing "security charade". Knives or whatever, I put up with it and do my best to comply...but there is room for improvement, and I think that is a more interesting debate, in general, than to consider the facts of some particular case where someone got caught carrying something he/she shouldn't. Yawn. I think this thread is going round in circles! It seems like a fairly simple dilemma. 1. Do we need security rules and restrictions? Assuming the answer is yes, then.... 2. Should those rules and restrictions apply to everyone, equally? My view is most certainly, YES to both! If you allow special exemptions then you create a loophole or weakness that can be exploited by any would be terrorist! You're just another sheep that's been brainwashed by the 'Ones in Charge'. |
White Night
I've been at this aviation lark a long time, and I have to agree with you.
Do a basic check for guns and bombs, and that's it. Open the cockpit doors again. (it'll never happen, though: I've never seen a government agency or department "downsize"). |
I was shocked when I found out how many vehicles, large and small, that enter the ramp areas of a rather large London airport completely unsearched !
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Well MY view is NO.... In light of the qoute that YOU pasted! ANYONE can, at ANTIME, f*** up an airliner... I am sick of the security BS that I have to go through just to board MY aeroplane... I have potentially 250 tonnes of explosive in my fuel tanks; and I have to remove my belt at 'security'? You're just another sheep that's been brainwashed by the 'Ones in Charge'. I'm afraid there will always be confrontations with security whilst there are attitudes such as these! I appreciate you are free to express your opinion, as I am! (Time to bite my tongue, I think). |
A few years back a cabin crew try to board the flight in Moscow with an AK47 air soft gun in her hand luggage.
I can just imagine what would have happened in London! The Moscow security, after the initial panic, took the gun away and let her through. |
1. Do we need security rules and restrictions? Assuming the answer is yes, then.... 2. Should those rules and restrictions apply to everyone, equally? My view is most certainly, YES to both! If you allow special exemptions then you create a loophole or weakness that can be exploited by any would be terrorist! Further, the mindless focus on certain specific items is a distraction. Israel, which uses highly trained interrogators for airport security, is instead focusing on behavior. Ask people where they work, why they are travelling, why they are carrying certain items, assess if it makes sense, and watch for behavioral cues. For any individual, this "interview" can take anywhere from 15 seconds to several hours. Certain people who are deemed higher risk get more attention. Most pilots don't fall into this category, and can also easily be pre-screened. |
There's a pretty simple solution.
Use the resources to look for explosives. Use the resources to profile, target behaviour and target terrorist related activities (and those who might have terrorist ties). Accept the fact that someone is ALWAYS going to slip through the cracks at some point and have a real plan which is prepared for this eventuality. Stop being silly about targeting objects which are no more or less dangerous than anything available on the aircraft. Box cutters and knives are no more suitable weapons than anything carried or able to be improvised on any aircraft. And get away from the nanny state feel good solution of villifying tools. |
In a daring and brilliant piece of undercover journalism, the daily fail once revealed the previously completely unknown fact that deadly swiss pocket knives are sold airside at Zurich Airport. "A 6cm toughened blade"!
These news reports about the CX pilot who got stopped just confirms to me there is a lot of hysteria, which only distracts from the real issue (security). |
Deptrai,
Excellent post. Thank you... Max |
Mindless repeat searches of everyone in exactly the same way every time is not the best approach to security. :ok: |
Canis primis,
Exactly correct. The security at FRA has adopted an explosive tag/strip check for staff and crew. Baggage, belts and hands are swiped and then the tag is monitored for any explosives. Green = pass, Red = baggage scan. Why the rest of the free world refuses to embrace and use technology is beyond me. Swiss army knives sold airside? Try to pry open the cockpit door with a 6cm blade. Mandi, Soda |
Try and do it with nail clippers!!!!:ugh:
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Professional security at LHR.
Recently came out of LHR. Security did a great job, I thought...quick, professional and thorough! As crew, as long as we know our limits and allowances, they do their job accordingly!
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Ethics and Values
Reading this to find out more about the "management" that we are presently negotiating with for our lives.
It doesn't look like ethics or values are words in their vocabulary. Must read for everyone: The 49ers II -The Rest of the Story - Kindle edition by John Warham. Professional & Technical Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. The 49ers II -The Rest of the Story - Kindle edition by John Warham. Professional & Technical Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. Found this thread on another page. Apologies for not making due reference to the author. Point being the following. Reference to 'negotiating with for our lives'.i always thought that keeping knives etc off aircraft had a great deal to do with 'lives'? Funny how monetary gain, conditions and service etc, however justified warrant this kind of statement. Let's not go into ethics and values....... As PIC or FO you're entrusted and respected for your skills and professionalism. Demonstrate it by setting an example! It appears that the carriage of a prohibited article is not a problem as long as it's carried by a pilot, irrespective of the regulatory requirements. I'm certain almost all professional pilots would soon land their plane at the nearest airfield if they heard a pax had a knife in their cabin baggage at 35,000 feet. Or would they first seek clarification as to whether the pax was a pilot or not? |
deptrai
but there is room for improvement, and I think that is a more interesting debate, in general, than to consider the facts of some particular case where someone got caught carrying something he/she shouldn't. However, the facts of this incident remain of interest to me. In particular, what item(s) the pilot was carrying and why someone saw fit to arrest him, with the consequent inconvenience to 260+ passengers and the rest of the crew. The impact of being arrested should not be under-estimated. For some people, it is a way of life. For the rest of us, it would be an alarming and worrying experience - whatever the eventual outcome. pacific_sunrise Recently came out of LHR. Security did a great job ..... As crew, as long as we know our limits and allowances, they do their job accordingly! In your Profile, you claim: Current a/c Type (Pilots only) "Boeings..Airbus...Lockheed" Occupation "crew" I can't help but wonder if you actually work in security. If my suspicions are ill-founded, I look forward to learning from your contributions to the technical threads. I won't hold my breath - in another forum (discussing security) you claim to be CC. Tourettes_Guy Reading this to find out more about the "management" that we are presently negotiating with for our lives. Three posts since 2010, two of which are on this thread. Why are you pretending to fly for Cathay? :confused: (Assuming, of course, that pacific_sunrise and Tourettes_Guy are actually two different people. ;) ) |
Flying Lawyer
Besides commenting on profiles, do you have anything else to say? Thanks for the compliment! I am in Aviation and do take security and safety seriously, so guilty as charged! As for Tourette's Guy, to answer your suspicion, no we are not the same person....he seems to know his stuff... |
Is somebody getting sensitive?:=. Probably know as much about A/C operations as your goodself. Certainly know more about the various international conventions, regulatory compliance and safeguards intended to protect all who enjoy careers in aviation and the pax who allow us to work in this profession by trusting us with their lives.
I also learnt to read at a very early age and don't always feel the need to make unnecessary responses to some of these threads. Didn't know you had to log in every time. Maybe you might want to read a few more security regs, they do after all apply to pilots too. Fair comment me thinks, as I've never been stopped or lifted passing through a security check point. Maybe it's time to hibernate again. |
For us line folk who habitually tromp through security at least once a day, the bewildering differences in security requirements at different ports are already confusing. In some places ipad and laptop must come out for security, but not in others. In some, liquids must come out too. Even within the EU, in some states crews are actually exempt from the 100ml liquid limit, but not in others.
At one extreme, FRA is very user-friendly to crewmembers and as Sodapop says most times the walk through metal detector and suitcase X-ray is not even required, at the other extreme, well, there's LHR. :( I'm pretty sure if you polled pilots worldwide you would see Heathrow close to the bottom. I think Deptrai and Shep were on track with the way security should evolve. No need to go as far as the Americans who allow armed pilots on board perhaps, but I do like their known crewmember concept. If you can establish that the chap or chapess is indeed pilot X at company Y, and as such has been properly pre-screened as a reliable and responsible individual, then a different security criteria should apply. It's always a bit surreal when said pilot X gets nail clippers confiscated, or reprimanded like a child for forgetting a 50ml tube of toothpaste outside the infamous plastic baggie, and then goes on to fly a heavily-laden airliner over a major city. The one-size-fits-all model of security simply makes no sense, is cost and time-consuming and should change. Won't hold my breath though. |
Flying Lawyer
I think you have the answer in the replies from p_s and T_G posted 6 minutes apart, although they could still in fact be separate personalities.:sad: |
VR-HFX
Yes, and only 13 minutes apart last time. :) p_s Not at the moment, thank you. I am in Aviation BTW, you forgot to delete 'crew' when you amended your Profile. ;) As for Tourette's Guy, to answer your suspicion, no we are not the same person....he seems to know his stuff... T_G Certainly know more about the various international conventions, regulatory compliance Maybe it's time to hibernate again. |
FL
Well said. I think Main Dog best summed it up. My experiences and views were summed up earlier in the thread. Luckily in my declining years I spend more time on the other side of the field and do not often have to pass through the pax terminals with the cattle. The whole airport security industry is just that...an industry...that is unlikely to give up it's multi billion dollar rice bowl without a fight. Personally I can understand why a lot of the mid-career pilots in many major carriers are becoming more and more disaffected with the career they have chosen. Years of sacrifice only to be subject to a proctologists report every time they go to work. Not to mention being treated by management as overpaid muppets. Interesting that CX management has singled out the pilot group for no pay rises for a number of years while succumbing the FA union ( and good on the FA union...thinking of joining myself). It's a race to the bottom but I guess that applies across society as the pyramid upon which economic theory is based has become inverted. I enjoy your work.:ok: |
Flying Lawyer
Gosh..you crack me up! TG, I hope your are around to reply immediately just to mess with their minds!
Sorry, I can't take the 'crew' out..will stay true to myself. I get many who say I am good with my knowledge on security and safety, but your remarks really does bring it home, thanks again... Now getting back to the main topic, I believe the poor FO made a silly unintentional mistake, hope he is pardoned for it...he is a decent chap, I've been informed! Once again, LHR were good this time I came through..yes, they are considered to be a pain in the A*** and that's coz it is the most irritating way to go through security dragging bags, getting on and of the crew bus...and then they do drugs Tests, their equipment is a tad different compared to what we are used to, pretty high tech really...but hey, 'crew' don't like to be checked...so whinge away.. So what if it's to keep everyone safe.... |
P_S
Just gone on the ignore list. Get some help. Soon. |
Ignored? What have I done now? :rolleyes:
Guess Honesty is not the best policy for some... You'll attacked my profile, said nothing about my post and then ignore me? The truth hurts I guess... Anyways, I'm over and out on this one...Rejoice! |
VR-HFX
Agree re main dog's post. Excellent. p_r Gosh..you crack me up! TG, I hope your are around to reply immediately just to mess with their minds! For someone who prides himself upon his familiarity with security matters, you are extraordinarily naïve. Surely by now it should have occurred to you that I have worked out who you are (both your usernames) and your role? Sorry, I can't take the 'crew' out..will stay true to myself. I believe the poor FO ..... is a decent chap, I've been informed! |
I do apologize, not an FO...
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Just to lighten up the mood a little...
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Originally Posted by main_dog
(Post 8968730)
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Like all aspects of life you get good bad and indifferent.
As crew we welcome consistency, but the reality is that's never going to happen, individual states will allways have different security agendas and will acordingly apply different regulations. What annoys and upsets are the power hungry, who I have to say are in the small minority. But they are the ones who ruin your day and who you remember. Like in all walks of life you remember and talk about the rude and nasty, rarely do you go out of your way to praise the good. Is there realy any need to shout loudly in public at a visiting crew that they should know by now that at Xxxx (where incidentally they have never been before) all phones have to be put in the blue trays, or whatever other rule they are having a crackdown on this week. :mad: What happened to staff lanes? At a lot of uk airports this is mixed in with pax and in some cases the priority card holding pax have priority over crew! :ugh: Sadly the calls for common sense will go unheeded as costs are driven down and ever more stringent rule based processes are implemented. |
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What happened to staff lanes? At a lot of uk airports this is mixed in with pax and in some cases the priority card holding pax have priority over crew! You've reminded me of when I was in the "mixed" security lane at a U.S. airport. A CC asked if she could go ahead. I said: "No, because I am late for my flight." "Well, you can't leave without us." "True, but you can leave without me." |
Is there any update on this?
I may have missed something but I understood that he was bailed until May. Has there been a court appearance or extension? |
No extension.
No charges. No criminal proceedings. File closed. |
FL
Thanks for the update. However this does raise other questions, principally why the police decided an arrest was the appropriate response to this matter? The CPS (I believe) decide whether or not to take the case forward, but this seems to have been massive overreaction by the arresting officer. Again though it is easy to try and second guess the man (or) woman on the spot. |
Originally Posted by Flying Lawyer
(Post 8997092)
No extension.
No charges. No criminal proceedings. File closed. ....more details would be welcome so that the same doesn't happen again. So what exactly was he carrying? |
So how come there has been no "please by guided accordingly" letters from the Boeing CP? Surely he could be passing on important info like this to his crew SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN......
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So how come there has been no "please by guided accordingly" letters from the Boeing CP? Surely he could be passing on important info like this to his crew SO IT DOESN'T HAPPEN AGAIN...... |
We don't know any details about what happened do we?
The guys been let off so it must have been a storm in a tea cup. It would be nice for the CP to at the very least provide some guidance so others can't make the same mistake........ |
The implications of this go beyond just 1 airline, so I was surprised that the mods moved the thread hear.
I was hoping that FL would be able to update on what happened. What was he carrying? Why did the police arrest? Why did the CPS decide to quietly drop the whole thing? Which is not the same as being let off. The power of arrest is a very important one and should not be open to abuse by overreacting police officers. If that is the case it is important that they are held accountable for their actions. As professional pilots agreed we should have enough sense not to carry swords, bayonets, bladed weapons etc in our baggage. However it seems very likely that this is not what occurred here. What may be legally carried elsewhere, may be a criminal offence in the uk. Not all states are equal. |
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