CX want a fight, why?
 

It is pretty obvious that management want a fight, they want us to enter contract compliance. Changes to staff travel, sickness policy, Manchester, A days and now an offer so low with the kicker of reduced crew on flights that the AOA are hinting at industrial action.

I am happy to do my bit but would like someone smarter than me to explain why a company who seem to always be 2-3 steps ahead of us want a fight? They know where this is heading so it is my assumption that they see some sort of advantage.

They want one. I say bring it. This is the last straw.

If they want to burn this place down so be it.

Another year of poor results maybe? Blame it on the pesky pilots!

Sign or be fired contract in your mailbox wiping out expat terms!

HKPA sweetener suitable for remaining LEPs and DEFOs, who will happily sign away leaving their expat brothers out in the cold (or humid wet), to accept or move on.

Standard Operating Procedures for the most caring company!

They want a fight because it would allow them to do things even they can't defend in civilized times. Reminds me of a certain Russian president who's playing by the same book these days.

A wiser man then me said "don't ever start a war you're not prepared to win". I'm afraid we may be about to do just that.

The new and improved HKPA will be a measured amount suitable to temp enough to stay, the ones who do leave will be leaving aviation for good otherwise they will take an even greater pay cut to join the bottom of a new seniority list.

The basing closures / freighter crew HK conditions have been a long term experiment to work out how many will leave and how many will stay when no housing is available, it'll be perfectly matched to to rid CX of expat terms (until the next managers find new ways to drive down COS'14)

Included in the new deal will be more hours less crew allowing them to ride through the short term pain.

Anyone know the exact dates that CC started and the new contracts ended up in the mailboxes in 2001 and then the firings?

Time to re-read

Where's the fast ball coming from next? Beware of the diversionary tactic.

Swire's perception is that the Paris embarrassment is down to the pilots and AOA action in contacting the French labor department. It's payback time and we are on the hit list, they want a fight, it will not be clean and the management will have to satisfy themselves that we lost and have learnt our lesson.

Who's willing to work L days now?

Oh there will always be a few even after this who will continue to work G and L days

I don't work there, but years ago I aspired to. When I started out in aviation, a long time ago, Cathay was the airline to work for. It seems that once again, bean counters have taken over and a driving a race to the bottom. It's very very sad what has happened to the industry in general, I wonder if there will be a time in the future when people sit down and say, 'what the hell were those managers thinking'?

They don't want a fight, they just know we will be too scared to do anything and so will accept any crap offer is on the table.

SMOC,

Before a divisive offer has been put in front of us by the Company for real, you are already making a derogatory generalisation about two groups of your colleagues, 'brothers' in your own words. You sure know how to inspire camaraderie and sense of brotherhood. If things really come to that, how would LEPs and DEFOs feel knowing they are foregoing personal gains so that people like you are treated fairly?

Which side are you on?

Too much discussion on an open forum. Move it to the AOA website.

I'm pointing out how CX fight, we better all realize it now rather than later.

Perhaps if the tactics are discussed at length even the worst case scenarios we might not get so emotionally blindsided when it comes from CX and we all start infighting.

I'd rather hear "this is exactly how those guys on pprune said it would go" perhaps we should try and unite rather than attack each other like CX want us to.

Forewarned is forearmed as they say.

And it's about time the newbies realized how far down the tube this company has gone.

Etihad apparently has approached the group as a whole (KA and CX pilots) with a proposal. Basically, CX is too hard to defeat financially in terms of a takeover, but Etihad want to A) expand faster than EK, and B- take over an asian hub. Being that it would be politically and financially difficult to do this the traditional way, they have come up with a new way that meets all of their objectives. That is, offer all CX/KA pilots their current contract +40%, as well as the ability to be based in one of the ports that they fly to, or have plans to fly to. This offer has to be accepted by at least 95% of the pilots in order for the deal to consummate. The effect is that everyone gives 3 months notice simultaneously. This is not industrial action at all, just giving notice. Everyone can leave in good graces, and CX will not have a reason to be mad at any one pilot - just the managers who did not prevent said scenario. Therefore, for the 15% who are too scared to make management mad, there is no downside - only upside. No need to work on your G day either, as you will finally be compensated properly. The only downside is that you may have to fly multiple airplanes (787/777, etc...). Contract goes up by a minimum of CPI each year, in addition to the YOS raise.

This is just a rumor, so don't flame me. It makes perfect sense though.

SMOC,

The reason why I posted is precisely because I was attacked - by you.

Please explain how I attacked you? I'm merely created a method CX would use to divide the crew. I know LEPs and new joiners will sign a better deal, who wouldn't, crew have to realise that each group will protect itself, until one group shows solidarity for another to prove otherwise. This is the dilemma, it may be too late for expats to stand up for the minority as that minority is soon if not already the majority and CX engineered it this way years ago and I'm sure have new plans for the future. Hopefully one day we'll learn by our mistakes but it's doubtful.

An Ethiad hostile takeover sounds exciting!

Where did you hear that Etihad rumour? Hard to believe... :ok:

Quadspeed,

You may be in possession of the biggest man-gina ever! You're assuming every pilot in the company is shriveled up like you. Best to keep your chin tucked in, you don't speak for me or any of the CX pilots with whom I fly.

Lessee......

A happy worker is a productive worker. The company has just once again turned toward bona-fide profitability in a more and more competitive market--partially because of efficiency gains helped along by the people you want to keep happy. Happy workers go the extra mile sometimes when they don't have to. Happy workers sometimes answer the phone during time of crisis when they aren't required to. Happy workers sometimes go to work when strictly speaking they don't have to. Building animosity always hurts everyone and will ALWAYS hurt the bottom line in time. ALWAYS. And it's usually the decision makers who wind up unemployed when the bankrollers see the bottom line headed south.

Maybe someone is forgetting they need pilots to drive the shiny aluminum tubes, and that there's a bit of a shortfall given the greater quantity of nice shiny aluminum tubes on the way. Or that some of their staff still are on the books at their previous airline. Or that there's not a limitless supply of pilots to drive shiny aluminum tubes around when folks are unhappy at where they are.

I guess my suggestion would be to keep the place a happy place :):):) -- but it seems things are going in the other direction.

quadspeed,

At what do you think the housing payments from CX stop? The day the AOA announces CC? Just like that, "the pot of gold" stops flowing. No, I think not. Last time I checked, housing was enshrined in the CoS. You're the one who has not thought this through, "brother."

Good grief.....not the brightest bunch of bulbs on the chandelier are we boys? CC is NOT industrial action. Let me understand this.....a HK court is going to agree with CX in suspending my housing based on the fact that I am ADHERING TO MY CONTRACT AS IT IS WRITTEN...?!! Really, that makes sense to you? I am happy to fulfill my contract to the LETTER. Unfortunately, many of my colleagues are happy to fulfill their contracts to the letter and beyond (G days....volunteering for commercials on TV and sim trials etc, etc:ugh:). You can do what you want, but if you show up on my flight having done something to undermine the collective best-interests of myself, my family and my colleagues, then you can further demonstrate your 'fine' qualities to me by operating 10 hours (with a break of course). Oh, and i'm sure that myself and/or the other FO will need a sector... Your choice. The time has come to pick sides. If you choose against me and my colleagues, then don't be surprised that you will be treated likewise (all within the terms of my contract of course! :E).

CC? That's what your going to make your grand stand with?

With no further plans for escalation when the counter-blows start?

You're quite right, they can't take away our housing allowance for CC. But they sure can if you strike.

And for christ sake get your facts staight. CC IS industrial action if it is coordinated.

Cx tactics
 

Company is showing their hand...

They are reforming sick day policy to make sickout difficult...

However for jurisdictions where they can't change policy, due to statutory requirements they use closing the Manchester base as an example of keeping anyone on a base thinking of action in check...ie if you pull any stunts the base will close.

Add to that the A day withdrawal to mess with those on a base to keep their tails between their legs...

And you can see that the CX is gearing for industrial action ...

They are also asking for 3 man long haul and 2 man wocl ops to further strengthen their hand for future industrial action due to an already acute crew shortage...

They are trying to cover their only weakness... Crew shortage..

Don't let them

Canceling A days actually weakens CX's hand as now they have only 30 days free reserve from based crew annually. So while that is inconvenient for commuters, it is worse for CX than unlimited strings of A days. You can put a reserve day in front of every trip, but those go away with the sick note too. With all this new reserve on bases, pilots will be happy to book off the day of their trip, if not mere hours before sign on. (Same can be said of HKG crew who can't get proper rest in those crappy hotels before the flight) Getting that sick note can take the better part of a day you know:)

Cheer up. The possibilities are limitless.

Good job boys and girls, it is working! They are getting desperate and making threats that are self destructive, like revising the sickness policy.

They are down on the ground. Don't stand back and watch them recompose. Time to jump on top and finish them off. Lets bump that 17% up to 30% and you'll be staring at your pay rise by early June.

:ok:

Crew Solutions
 

The solution to a crew shortage is to employ more managers and create another department - what about the "People Department?":p

To many of the posters that pound their keyboards with conviction….a short history lesson for those that were not here in 1999.

At the time, emotions and stress had built up after several years during which we were at the receiving end of a constant stream of threats, pay cuts and reduced conditions; parallel to a concerted campaign by the Company to demean and diminish pilots among the other employees (Commitment Days).

Letters from the then DFO contained threats of employment action against those “perceived” to be working against the best interests of the Company and trainers were threatened. At that time, the AOA leadership was very strong and the association membership consisted of 95% of Cathay pilots.

An equally aggressive letter to the pilots from the AOA answered every threatening letter written by the Company. It was a non-stop, high stakes, roller coast ride of emotion.

Except for a sizeable group of members from Australia who were the living casualties of the industrial “dispute” that occurred in Australia in 1989, and which culminated in them loosing their jobs, the AOA membership was united, tired of the cuts to our contracts, and most pilots wanted to respond in some way.

Many of the Aussies, who had seen this movie before, were very reluctant to take part in any industrial action that would risk a repeat of them loosing their jobs. The Company sensed this weakness and aggressively nurtured this sentiment.

A point was reached where pilots were in no condition to be flying. The stress was immense and emotions had frayed to the point where people’s mental capacity was genuinely diminished and a boiling point was reached in 1999. Following a very emotional AOA meeting in TST, a sick out campaign began the next morning.

The two Company flight surgeons, having witnessed first hand the build up of stress, were extremely supportive of the pilots on the line. They issued sick notes to any and all….without question (and paid a price for their support after the event).

What happened next was quite illuminating. It began as a trickle, but then snowballed as a large number of B scalers began to report sick to support the small number of A scalers who initiated the action in Hong Kong (much to the relief of the A scalers who got the ball rolling).

The Company was quick to respond. We were eviscerated in the local press….which characterized us as spoiled and overpaid miscreants who were faking illness against a reasonable and just employer.

As days went by, and as airplanes were parked, a number of pilots elected to avoid, prevaricate, deceive, and do any number of things to not call in sick for fear of losing their jobs. Even those who had been on G days for the first week of the campaign, and after 500 pilots had already reported unfit, were still too terrified and simply unable to steel themselves to the task. Many went to work, some sneaked into work, and flew with an immense sense of self loathing. The stress these pilots operated under was incredible.

The tech logs had names blacked out so no one could check to see who was still flying….

Many of the offenders at the time were, surprisingly, among those who previously pounded their chest and screamed the loudest for AOA action. Many crumbled under self imposed doubts, admitting to friends of having reconciled themselves to being cowards. It could not have been easy for these pilots to go to work and fly. Long time friendships ended; and many personal relationships fell apart.

To this day, among those of us who were there, everyone knows which side of the line each person stood on.

To many of the posters here who pound their keyboards with conviction….

Can someone please point me to the Managers public forum where they discuss their thoughts/plans/discussions on the (unfortunately) inevitable clash?

Ravens post should be read and understood by all. The post belongs on the AOA boards, being almost misplaced here among the garbage and the masks.

You don't point a gun unless you're willing to pull the trigger, and you don't encourage others while harbouring doubts yourself.

Have a good, long think about where we are, what is under threat and what is at risk if we break under pressure.

It's very, very real.

quad speed,

You never answered my questions above. Why?

CXorcist

Might I suggest you look 2 posts below your own? I might well ask you the same.

While plans for a tactical strategy certainly belong somewhere else it is NOT 1999. There might be some similarities (especially amongst the negotiation by the company--or complete lack thereof) but the situation has dramatically changed.

1. The company LOST the lawsuit for wrongful termination as it will going forward so there is precedent.

2. A number of judgments have been subsequently made regarding many labor issues (including SHP for the cabin crew and other labour issues) and in ALL of them the company has lost. We can argue amounts and how the wheels of justice grind slowly but most law is based on precedent which exists now.

3. Workers have seen a continuous decline in $$$, rosters, a continuous increase in inflation, and a continuous increase in work--this can't be portrayed as a 74 hour "A scaler" sitting on the beach in Monte Carlo anymore. Moreover, more of the flying public is seeing pilots as being working professionals who aren't overpaid to make important decisions. One need look no further than the Malaysian incident to see how much scrutiny, responsibility, and trust is placed in crews. in In fact, reactions to some high profile accidents have shocked some of the public in how little starting pilots are paid. So the "prima donna" factor ain't there anymore.

4. Most importantly, the company--being a capital intensive operation--is facing substantial new equipment orders at the same time it faces increased competitive pressures that didn't previously exist in a protected market that ain't protected anymore. So parking jets as it's just turning profitable is something it (despite it's bravado) can't afford. It MUST keep the jets flying if it is to survive. AND the lead time to train new replacements is significant at a time the training department is maxed out simply trying to fill cockpits. So it can't afford massive firings or industrial action. In terms of war chest, the financial position ain't what it was in 1999 to support a major operation would it occur.

The AOA has significant cards in it's hand so long as it doesn't fold--and one would hope can go "all in" if it becomes necessary. I hope ALCON understand this--including those who SHOULD be negotiating as adults for the Company. And hopefully those who would be selfish can manage to consider something beyond their boat payments when looking at the larger view. The decisions made in the next few months will affect profitability and livelihoods for years.

If the situation were to worsen for whatever reason, when your grandkid asks you "Where were you during the big strike of 2014 ?" I'd HATE to have to answer him "ummmm...I was working G days to pay off my yacht."

Quadspeed,

CC is the first step, assuming mediation does not work. We have never experienced mediation with the company. So the outcome seems very uncertain. I doubt there would ever be a full fledged strike (this group is far too fractured and spineless for that, no thanks to guys like yourself), but some form of escalated IA is certainly a possibility. It would not take much given the shortages on some fleets to make the whole house of cards come crumbling down.

Your lack of answers are, in fact, answers.

Like I've said before, I don't think you've really thought this through to its logical conclusion. Even when you write the very words you fail to grasp their significence.

Don't point an unloaded gun.

Shep,

Another great piece. Lots of substance to make your argument.

Quad,

The same cannot be said of you. You come across as a scared, little man who strangely finds comfort in the "reality" of self-defeatism. Guarantee you're not in the AOA but have a well rehearsed explanation for why not. At the end of the day, you're just smarter than the rest of us with our "unloaded guns."

Thanks :)

I REALLY hope we handle this well. We'll likely never be in a better position than now--at least no time soon. We don't have to accept a bad deal.

Goodposts Shep

Keep them coming

Im already doing CC so should everyone else be PRONTO

Ladies and gents its time to start the CC do's and dont's thread ....

Another thing - the large increase in competition since 1999 (LCC & middle east carriers)

IMHO this means the government is much less likely to step in. Cathay stopping or reducing operations (for however long) is no longer a massive problem for HK Inc., just an inconvenience. Hainan Group (for example) could quickly wet lease a lot of aircraft to HKE/ HKA, and Jetstar could also ramp up fast.

I think if CX have a substantial amount of disruption, objections to J* AOC and CAD limitations on HKA would go away...