Bases no longer an option.
 

Well the AOA have finally said it, how many in CX will still live in the delusion of getting a base?

Where from?
Ladies and gentlemen, the day has come.

THAT .... IS .... UNTRUE ....

Agreed in principle, (not 10-20 though). Different to the opening assertion which implied never.

That's my point I don't think bases are required anymore, local terms are cheaper (less hassle) than bases, in the next few years expats in HK will be a minority and low time F/Os will have to stay until they get command, by which time leaving will not be an option due to the pay cut as a result of seniority.

In less than 10yrs expats conditions will be gone and therefore the savings from bases, they will wither on the vine.

Personally I'm not interested in a base but the amount of crew who talk freely about going on a base astounds me, especially considering some of their ages vs their position on the seniority list.

it's an interesting debate, which is largely useless as we do not "KNOW" To me it will be a bonus if it happens not something I am relying on. Purely for entertainment purppses, If you, (SMOC) agree to give 1000HKD to the Sunnyside Club IF bases open, then I will agree to give them 1000HKD if I leave CX from Hong Kong? Whadya say? :D

Sounds fair. :ok:

SMOC,

If local terms are so much less hassle why don't CX comply with local labour laws? SHP for example.:)

Exactly it's so easy here you don't have to even comply with labour laws, plus workers rights in general here are 3rd world.

Edit: Spelling.

CX always goes for the grey option, that includes legal/tax advice.

I am sure the CX know the labour requirements in HKG and the costs involved in ignoring certain parts.

They employ a full time legal dept to fight their employees. Same team.

There has been no SHP paid on my payslips since my base was 'on-shored'.

Yet the HKIRD has decreed that I am a Hong Kong employee, and therefore must pay HKG tax, so two claims are in, for pre- and post- on-shoring, so CX's lawyers can suck on that.

The airline will not officially state that there are no more new basing slots, in order to maintain the carrot on the stick to attract and retain the gullible.

Capt dart,

You've hit the nail squarely on the head sir.:D


I can't believe so many of our flight crew still believe there will be bases. :=

Cap'n Dart
 

Absolutely spot on. The bases will continued to be "reviewed" indefinitely because the company knows that if they came out and told the truth, retention and recruitment would suffer.

The truth is, as long as Australia has long service leave, there will never be another Australian base. Anyone who vaguely understands world politics, will understand why there will never be another Euroland base. Canadian bases, who knows.... Not looking good however with the socialistic employment laws, however the YVR-JFK route does suit the concept of bases.

The US and UK are perhaps the most promising. The UK has reasonably friendly labour laws, however those laws are becoming more European by the day and the UK government's near insolvency means the burden on employers will only increase.

Can we read anything into an American lawyer joining the 3rd floor? Probably not, maybe she has nice big round eyes:E However, our route expansion is focused on the Americas (North and South). This operationally favours bases if we are going to continue to hub through ANC/ YVR and in the future if we hub through the US into Southern America. American labour laws and costs remain comparatively friendly.

Whilst I am confident in my predictions for Australia and Euroland, there are three big variables.

1. A strengthening US$ changes the equation markedly.
2. Agressive poaching by the Middle Eastern Carriers. Whilst, they traditionally do not base or encourage commuting, the expat package is going to be mighty attractive to the the JFO icadet.
3. If the Chinese/ Korean/ Japanese Carriers ever sort their Shi'ite and put together a descent commuting package. This need not be money, more a recognition of our hedonistic, slovenly western lifestyles.

Liam

How do you figure Long Service Leave is what kills the Australian base? Even for the longest serving captain it equates to little more than 6 months housing in Hong Kong. Not even CX management is so short sighted as to view this as a deal breaker!

Loss of absolute control through other aspects of the bothersome Australian labour law is a different story however...

Bizarrely, maybe it's not about the money?

Tonto
 

Putting aside the likelihood that Housing probably won't exist in a few years, think about who will get Oz bases (should they ever occur again). Obviously, the senior guys get them, who are also closest to retirement.

In fact, anyone who is thinking of retiring who has the right to live in Oz would be crazy not to take an Oz base. They may need to convert to the Airbus, but once on base they can take Long Service leave, part way through their 20+ weeks of leave they announce they are taking early retirement. They probably won't even have to set foot in Oz and risk being eaten, bitten or stabbed by a stingray. They can sit in France and count the $$$$$.

Regrettably my grandfather never stole a loaf of bread, so I have no right to live in Oz, otherwise I would be into it like an SO into the sandwiches.

Referencing the Housing comment. If Cathay even breathes in the direction of those on expat housing, the dominoes will certainly fall. If they mess with the package in any way, I can say with a good deal of certainty that nearly all American's would be gone within 6 months. All US carriers hiring like gang busters, you'll be a narrow body skipper in 5 years. Absolutely NO motivation to stay in Hong Kong without the housing. None.

I would speculate also that while the opportunities are not as abundant, we would lose a good share of Ozzies, Canuks, Kiwi's, and Brits to boot.

No, it won't be some famed mass exodus, but it would be more than Cathay could cope with.

I believe the housing is safe, because it is the more senior crew who are on it, and you can't staff an airline with Cadets, JFO's, and Freighter Captains.

Proviso: The unwillingness to formalize the 25 year housing is most certainly concerning. What are they planning?

Methinks a Commuting Contract is about to be offered. Here is your 25 year housing, or sign it all away for life, and here is your commuting contract. That would be Vintage Cathay

Correct I think Mr Ash, however, I feel discussing our fears on this website will only give our dumb managers ideas how they can debase our contracts and increase our fears.

Perhaps we should be discussing a pay increase for the forthcoming B747/777 MFF or indeed the A330/350 both of which will mean increased workload.

It's time to unite not fragment.

SIA gave it away, Ops never wanted it, the bean counters did. It wasn't money but having to run separate rosters and the limitations of having to get crews back to base at the expense of the Singapore based crews and having to operate to other countries' labour laws. Different to CX in that the majority of pilots were Singapore based by choice.

Have to admit it is much easier to run one roster from one base so supply and demand enters the equation.

Slight thread drift
 

I see the Oz$ trading below 91c. How low does it need to go before people sell up and return to the great penal colony?

Liam,
90 c is equivalent to 7.0 :1
80c is equivalent to an exchange rate of 6.0:1

I am of the belief that a certain number of our A scaler brethren are awaiting a 6 infront of their exchange rate before they book the rate at which their fixed benefit provident will move to AUD. The timing is critical and could make a huge difference to the final sum. Given most of them are trainers could see a interesting response from cx to attempt to keep them on the corporate tit.

A scale are on the starting blocks !
Full fare tickets at the ready
Another 10 % drop in the OZ
And they're off !

When the South Pacific Peso (AUD) goes below USD$ 0.90 it enters the world of free fall. When it goes below USD$0.80 you will see an exodus of people descendants of those "hand picked by a Magistrate" plus a few "imports" to "God's own Country". They are not irreplaceable, however they will leave a large hole. Interesting times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

April 2nd 2001

$3.74 HKD to $1 AUD

Please bring it on :ok:

@ Liam
 

I don't like the angle you spoke about housing. (U may be near the end of your career, but buffer up a little pls for the benefit of those below u.) Its a f...g struggle living in these times and this is the last fort, so keep the sharp up...
and avoid such talk.

With Housing I can barely justify living here.
Although some days with massive inflation going on (despite having had a long run a QE in the US) I'm considering locking in back home now already.

Recently I worry that when QE ends that inflation & prices will raise even more back home.

So if housing is messed with in anyway- It's a very easy decision.

SLS for 25yrs, its done already one digit changed from a 1 to a 2.

Anyway lets move this to AoA forum.

In the mean time
ANZ SO Recruitment is happening - Refer to Pacific section.

I bet you a pound to a penny that almost none of them will leave, even as much I would love driving them to the airport. Money has nothing to do with these guys. Egos get in the way. At the moment they are Bloggs the Senior Check and Training Captain at Cathay Pacific or Bloggs the Senior Captain at Cathay Pacific. If they leave they will be Bloggs down the road at number 14.

The Cav

Be wary of our housing situation..the enemy lies within....


Two Russian men Vladimir and Georgi have been best friends for most of their lives.
Vladimir finally gets enough money to buy himself a goat.
Georgi is extremely jealous that his friend was able to afford the goat having wanted one for himself for a great while.
One day they are walking down the street and stumble upon a lamp.
Georgi picks it up cleans it off and lo and behold a genie appears.
The genie tells the man that he will grant him one wish, anything he wants.
Well the mans mind having been on nothing but his friends new goat thinks up his wish.

He turns and tells the genie. I have been so jealous of Vladimir's goat and have wanted one of my own for so long but was never able to afford one and now I have the chance to be equal........ I want you to kill my friends goat.


Be wary...human nature (and the nature of our current political climate) is alive and well at Cathay Pacific.

Let's fight to get EVERYONE on FULL HOUSING, or at a minimum, index the HKPA.

As much as it may offend your liberal friends, desire to go UP yourselves, and applaud those already there, don't desire to bring others down.

For those who are up there, FIGHT for those below you. Reach out your hand. What does that look like? It means expending political AOA capital to raise the tide. iCadets are members in almost full force, let's get them up!

Success for more, not equal poverty. (yes, any degradation to our current housing, would be tantamount to forcing a career change for many)

INCOMING! :ok:

Agree 100%

Spot on Ash1111, but good luck with that. Just look at the reaction by many of our pilots to suggestions of fighting for housing for the Paris-based FCNs forced to HKG. No, he can't have it if I can't!

Sadly we are short-sighted: when given a choice between allowing someone else to reap a benefit and ensuring that no-one gets any benefit, many will choose the latter.

As we say we're I'm from, envy is a very ugly beast. :(

main_dog

The problem with the Paris based FCN is not housing. I think the majority agreed that if they moved back to the right seat then full expat benefits should be paid. The problem is the complete disregard for the seniority system if these guys received full expat benefits. It is not a case of if I can't have it then neither can he. It is a case of someone in HKG receiving full expat benefits as a CN out of seniority. If these guys moved back to the right seat then they would receive full expat benefits and a CN slot would open for the rightly eligible pilot at the top of the FO seniority, who would then be a CN claiming expat benefits.

Totally agree, Sloppy.

The best thing about our last "pay deal" wasn't the pay at all. It was getting rid of freighter commands, or early commands or half-commands or cheap, lukewarm commands or whatever you want to call them. All they ever did was undermine us.

Excellent post, Ash.:ok:

thread drift...

SloppyJoe is right on the money...Any FCN who wants to be in HKG can have full expat benefits as long as he sits in the seat his seniority allows...nothing more, nothing less...

Is that too much too ask...?

Right on, Sloppy.

Take their rightfull place with three stripes on the housing-included seniority list, and everybody's happy. But keeping their command - the one I turned down because of the crap conditions they accepted - is not going to happen. Period.

If they can't swallow their pride and accept the right hand seat then so be it. I'd stand shoulder to shoulder protecting their right to expat benefits if it wasn't for the fact that they are robbing me of my command while they're at it. Not the best example of the type of solidarity they cry out for.

But was that not the whole point about the Paris-based freighter guys, they did not want to come to HKG at all. They were forced to choose between giving up their commands (which no-one -especially in CX- would in their right mind do) or not getting housing. As such it was a win-win for the company, as they simultaneously saw a way to reduce their crew complement on bases while increasing the number of HKG-based crew on local terms, sadly accompanied by barely-concealed glee by some colleagues still affected by freighter-angst.

However this thread risks derailing into another freighter-bashing vs. freighter-whingeing thread which is pointless. The big picture here is that there are basically two big attractions left to being a pilot in CX: the receipt of proper, indexed housing if you are in HKG, or a basing. Both of these seem to be in the crosshairs.

By focussing on our colleague's goat or lack thereof, we simply hasten the demise of the few remaining bright spots in our jobs (ie basings and housing).

Braced for the inevitable incomng.

@ main dog
 

I agree with u.

We should have stood bye that all FN CPT get full housing and stay as Cpt.
The big win is not letting CN work for less in left seat and not setting a precedence for local CN. ( yes u can whine and we loose some, but see the bigger picture )

EVEN better is to force those without SNR back to the right seat!! If not then as above.

But too allow someone to fly in the left seat for less is a failure for every single pilot in this company. :ugh::{

Unforgivable how 'stupid' we are at times.

We seriously need to think longterm stratergies as a cohesive and proffesional group.

How much synergy and guidence can we all offer to our leaders?

Stand tall folks.

Good post Ash, however it took only 3 further posts to show why we will never unite. :ugh:

Along the same lines as a 10,000 hr "cadet" can't have expat terms, he didn't do the hard yards and have 1,500 hrs when he joined. :ugh:

Why do pilots always feel the need to kill the goat? Is it a symptom of a seniority based career?

http://i.snag.gy/kdu77.jpg

@crewsunite

FCN retain command on return to HKG? Really?

I disagree. Our seniority is the only thing we have left of an otherwise decimated career.

You're suggesting rewarding those who chose to CORRUPT the concept of a seniority based career path by PROTECTING their seats?

What about protection for the hundreds of FOs who respected the concept, waiting their turn in HKG?

Having been on the receiving (shaftee) end of the ASL debacle, I can assure you the major reason I chose to stay in CX was my OPTION to not fly freight (and sit next to a lesser experienced JUNIOR as his FO) - an option which no longer exists.

I've nothing to lose or gain by either swing of the pendulum.

I'm suggesting you set aside any selfish motives you may have and think of the greater good.

LAST IN, FIRST OUT.

I hear ya buddy. :ok:

1/ seniority
2/ seniority

would you like to guess what 3/ is?