Paris Base Closed
 

Rumours hitting the street that Paris has been closed. Letters in mailboxes apparently. I don't know any further details yet.

Tis correct. What a mess.

Yes it's true. Sept 1st . Email and letters

That is because based guys cost less, it is much cheaper to keep guys on a base than to have them in HKG. It saves the company money you see. That is why all Paris based officers will come to ... HKG. :\

To all new recruits, please come to Cathay, we have bases! Trust me, the other bases will have vacancies very soon! I heard a rumor that we are gonna hire direct entry pilots on bases! Miami is gone open this year, swear to god. :hmm:

AOA, simple statement,

Down tools !!!

Time to show leadership. If we let this slide, the rest will follow.

Leadership please.

What will happen with the involved pilots?

Is FRA next?

They will be using the AMS model where the base was closed and nobody batted an eyelid at having to move to London with a huge pay cut or disrupt your entire family and move ( quickly) to The other side of the world.
CX has tried to do basings on the cheap and it's turning into a nightmare (shame) for them. What will happen to the people based in Paris?? They will presumably have 2 months to move to the other side of the world. Quite reasonable don't you think. After all, we're all part of the Cathay 'family'.

If they touch FRA, it will be Emirates for me. Might avoid the rush and start the process now.

CX eventually wants everyone in HK on local conditions. Thats the long term plan. If you think anything else you are delusional. :sad:

Onebarwonder
 

Correct. They can't do it all at once, so they will nibble away over the years at basings and HKG housing, until one day, probably closer than we think, it will be as you say.

:(

Manchester is next

Why would MAN be next? Isn't MAN CxUK? they are partly under UK law right? Paying UK taxes? Was PAR or AMS under any Dutch/French Cx company?

are you serious or just playing the fool?

At least they will never close Canadian bases , we Canadians are too willing to do anything for the company to stop them from closing the base, he'll we will even go direct to CH and suggest better patterns for us to get more , don't mind you HK based guys , whatever works for us is best !

Redundancy notice by email, what does that remind you of?

Should the company give at least three months notice?

Assistance with relocation to HKG does this include schools and sufficient time to find suitable accom?

No I thought not, DL will have a busy next week. Deserves all he will get from both directions there may be security posted on the third floor on Monday.

Hmm, heard there are 39 affected - anybody like to coin a handy little handle ending in "ers" that describes this little group?:{

are you serious or just playing the fool?

QuadSpeed, I am Extremely serious. CxUk guys get for instance paternity leave or their partners(not wives) also get ticket benefits, all their salary is paid in UK banks ,etc etc. these were all conditions the company adhered to when they went onshore in the UK. ooh and not to forget their apparent deals with the HMRC.

So my question stands, why would they close a British base if that seems to be the only country where they seem to have their onshoring arranged. It's a simple question guys, just want to know, no need for any strange comments . From what I knew the PAR and AMS bases were both under VETA right?

And can someone that has seen this letter confirm that it is a fact that these officers must head out to HKG instead of another position in the base AREA?(like the AMS guys)

Will be interesting to see how many freighter captains will resign rather than come to HKG. :sad:

NOBODY and I say again NOOOBODDYYY will resign, there are no jobs out there, even the Middle east is pulling back on recruitment. Hope the guys can stay in Europe. Damnn this company makes you regret ever sending your cv, :-(((

I wonder what housing deal etc the 41 are being offered?

You all sound surprised.

Weird.

Nothing changes ... housing deal is in accordance with normal cos, why should it be any different? Come back to HKG on expat terms if eligible. Otherwise, freighter guys will be on HKPA.

Don't judge everyone by your own circumstances. There are guys in CDG who will not want to come to HKG no matter what. Will freighter capts want to come to HK on HKPA? Will they want full expat housing in the RHS? If there are no resignations I will be very surprised.

Normal COS? They tried it on with 49 guys, why not 41? Half of them are not even union members, unlike 48/49 (due admin error- wrong Wong).

Exactly. Little to lose. Especially given the fleet 'realignment'.

Such has always been the risk with bases; the threat of having to move to HKG at short notice, or leaving the company. With the EU aviation sector dead in the water, I predict minimal attrition. A handful to the Middle East (out of spite/bad feeling) perhaps, but not enough to raise eyebrows. They, sure as ****, won't be joining any big French carriers anytime soon.

Will the AOA do anything? Hahahahaha, don't make me laugh. Perhaps a RA 65 on local conditions without HKPA?!

In all seriousness; If they're eligible for full housing, we all know there aren't swathes of better opportunities to be had.

Better the devil you know.

Okay the Paris base is closing, some will be screwed by the
offered conditions in HKG.
But, what are the companies true motives in closing the base.
I always believed getting the bases up was a means of shutting
down as much of the old provident fund as possible.
There must be an underlying tax or employment issue to
cause a scrambled shutdown of Paris, especially as the cost
to the company seems far from neutral.

The company has said that officers may bid for any vacancies in their base area. However, there are, at present, no vacancies so it's HKG or bust. Cargo guys with families will find that really tough and commuting only a short term fix.

IMO Man will not be closed but numbers reduced to cover the service only there are plenty of 744 drivers in LHR. As most of the MAN base is ex KA I don't think CX or many others will care that much, we'll have bigger fish to fry.

This is another Pole Shift moment, and remember, that the base review is still ongoing, that is stated in the letter. So another threat left to linger.

Closure letter
 

The terms are stated that officers may bid for vacancies in their base area, however, there are, at present, no vacancies.

The base review is still ongoing, read into that, that there could be more base realignments.
MAN will be downsized, IMO, to fit the services into there. Most of the MAN base is ex KA so what do CX care, there were no promises to not disadvantage them when they signed over.




IMO. This whole mess is precipitated by the French. This is a Pole Shift, more disruption to our lives will, no doubt, follow. Interesting that the new French govt is planning a big tax hike on ex-pat Poms living in France.

Doing business in the new socialist Franch will be more challenging for any foreign company, best let the cheese eating surrender monkeys fester in their own merde.

I certainly empathize with our Paris based colleagues. This is quite a significant change imposed on our members, with little warning. I understand the benefits package that will be available to them in HKG is still somewhat unclear.

What has motivated this sudden change in policy? I suspect CX is just starting to realize that the basing fiasco noose is slowly tightening around their skinny little necks and they are hoping to quickly reduce their liability.

May I suggest that this may be a defining moment for the HKAOA going forward. This will be a real opportunity for them to show some leadership and stand up for these members. Many based pilots have felt for a long time that the HKAOA has never really represented their interests. This is a real opportunity to prove otherwise.

Will the HKAOA rise to the occasion?

Maybe Canadian bases will be next.....

Very sorry for the PAR guys, I know this really messes up your lives.

Besides the persistent rumours, considering the new extra costs, the significant loss of control over based personnel, the first world employment laws/taxes/etc., and the relative roster "inflexibility" of based crew, I too am not surprised. I am sure there will be more bases and basing areas (whole onshored "entities") that will close relatively soon.

After the AMS fiasco a couple of years ago, in which seniority and the basings agreement were "re-interpreted" and/or altered and/or ignored and/or "read between the lines searching to determine some convenient intent" by both the company and the AOA, behind the scenes with the secret "new based positions being created but only for the AMS crew" deal going down before anyone knew what was happening....well, I think we can be certain this type of deal will be clearly and loudly opposed this time, and many will aggressively fight to disallow any similar deal. The AOA will surely not dare to try pulling this out-of-seniority scam again, unless they want a revolt and massive resignations - which of course is just what the company surely wants.

Perhaps the whistle-blower pilot who raised the BS flag last time to try to prevent the "company-style" manipulation/re-interpretation/ignoring of base closure rules and/or key words will put a motion forward immediately to ensure no "insider" can do this again?

I'm sorry for those who don't want this base closed, but the deal is there in writing, and for years you knew it was likely to happen: The company can close the base if they want. The 2 1/2 months' notice is pretty lousy. But, you know they did that on purpose too....

"If they touch FRA, it will be Emirates for me. Might avoid the rush and start the process now..."

I am right there with you mate......

Betcha Don't......

IS, unfortunately the choice is going to be either bending over and spreading them wide for the CX bat or the dole... aviation is heading for the next financial disaster, particularly in Europe, and maybe in Oz too...:{

They've always known the social cost of the Paris base and manning levels so why wait so long and give the guys such short notice? You could argue the Perth base is of an equal manning level and that is left untouched. So is it really because of a new social government? You can't get more socialist that Gillard the dullards Australia! Something smells very fishy about all this.

Perth closing is also a rumor floating around...

Closing Paris a no brainer
 

Costs for closing:
1. Snr CN - Move to HKG, 5 years max full housing, then they'll fark off
2. Fr8 CN - Move to HKG, 24k housing...
3. FO's - Move to HKG, full housing
4. Might Lose a few Fr8 captains/ FO's

Costs for keeping it open:
1. Conversion for Snr CN - 1 mil hkg / course... good for 5 years then they'll fark off
2. Fr8 CN - No Conversion
3. FO's - conversion - 1 mil hkg
4. French social securities!!! 10% of salaries

Benefits for Closing:
1. Make use of overmanned fr8 captains from manchester on gbp scale
2. Avoid french social secrities
3. Force some Fr8 captains to leave company ... takes care of over manning
4. problem on the 400 with freight downturn and the need for UPL
5. Intimate strong arm tactics of closing bases if mgmt doesn't get what they want with px on freighter.

Benefits for Keeping it Open:
1. Saving Full FO/ CN housing

If you do the math, french social securities will equal the housing saved which makes benefit of closing points 1, 3, 4, 5 cream...for the mgmt.

legal challenge in France?
 

Is there an actual French citizen living in France and paying French taxes on the PAR base?

Didn't a similar Dutch person on the AMS base become the crucial factor? I believe it was "settled" there? Perhaps a supported legal challenge might gain some ground?

Anecdotal but................
 

SIA operational management never wanted bases, they felt they were losing control and rosters became very fragmented. Basings were thrust upon them by the bean counters after an ex BA captain brought a so called 'expert' out from the UK to convince them. As soon as operations could they closed down the bases, full roster flexibility is returning, now expat terms in Singapore are fading fast also.

As the management in CX becomes more local I suspect you are looking at the same CX that existed thirty years ago, everyone based in HKG, if you want the job you move to HKG, if not, "next please". Not very encouraging, I know, but I think you will find that 'HKG only' on ever reducing T & Cs is the long term reality. :uhoh: