UK CAA IR 7 year fiasco
 

Gents,

Regarding the 7 year nonsense re our UK Instrument Ratings, can you let me know if some Cathay pilots are planning a legal case against the authority? We are in the process of drawing up a mandate, but don't want to have to double up accidentally and would be willing to add our weight to the case.

Please PM me so that we can act accordingly.

FM.

The feasibility of some sort of action was looked at - as the rule was clearly nonesence. It came from JAR FCL 1-185 which stipulated that 7 years was the longest you could not hold an IR for without having to renew it with exams and a further test. This came in in 2005, but the the UK CAA failed to act on it until last year when they finally got round to publishing LASORS 2010 - a year late. The result was tha if your IR had lapsed more than 7 years - tough luck!

The HK unions looked at a challenge and took the advice of BALPA who were looking at the problem on behalf of many of their overseas members. BALPA took legal advice which said that as JAR FCL was the guidance document, but produced by a body which no longer existed, the CAA had the power to interpret it as they saw fit. The only way to challenge their decision was through a judicial review which would be very lengthy, prohibitively expensive and would have less than an even chance of success. So the plan for some sort of action was dropped.

Now EASA FCL has been published (for UK pilots in CAP804 CAP 804: Flight Crew Licensing: Mandatory Requirements, Policy and Guidance | Publications | About the CAA) and there is little change. The seven years rule translates across to EASA FCL and is stipulated as such in the new document. It refers to "the rating" and not "a rating" therefore we must assume it means a JAR IR. So it appears that if you have an old UK licence with an IR expired by 7 years, you're still stuffed. If your UK licence has a LPC/IR within 7 years, you have until 8 Apr 2014 to convert it to an EASA licence.

For those who hold UK issued JAR licences, they are automaticly considered to be EASA licences until expiry, when on renewal you will be issued with the new style document. The EASA licence doesn't expire but is only valid so long as a type rating, IR and medical are current. This means a type rating will have to be done every year.

However, EASA FCL has the provision to add foreign ratings to your licence. Quote: Section 4 Part Q Subpart 1

(4) Aeroplane or helicopter type ratings may be issued to holders of Part-FCL licences that comply with the requirements for the issue of those ratings established by a third country. Such ratings will be restricted to aircraft registered in that third country. This restriction may be removed when the pilot complies with the requirements in paragraph C.1 of Annex III to Part-FCL.


These will be annotated "for (insert country) registered aircraft only. The CAA have been written to asking them how they plan to implement this. No reply has yet, but as the CAA has no power to interpret EASA FCL, they will have to go back to putting foreign ratings on licences as they used to. This means we will be able to keep our JAR/EASA licences current while flying in Hong Kong. It was also enquired if this applied to national licences - if they are still valid.

Of course, most JAR member states did still allow foreign ratings to be added and this allowed their pilots to retain their licences - which is where the CAA stance became so unfair. However, as all EASA licences are the same and a European pilot has the right to chose which authority he is registered with (the crieria is where the medicals records are kept) I can see a lot of British pilots working overseas changing their licencing authorities if the CAA continue with their position.

EASA FCL came into being on the 8th of April this year. EASA licences were supposed to be issued from 1st of July, but inevitably, this has slipped to the14th of September.

Thanks Dan,

Actually, the legal angle we are taking is that the implementation of the change was not done properly, i.e. we were given no proper warning of the change. There are legal precidents regarding 'high handed bureacratic (?) rulings' that have been won. I'm hoping to meet an aviation lawyer in DXB in the next week to discuss things.

Incidentaly, I've heard the reason given why they didn't warn us of the impending change. I can't at the moment say any more for legal reasons, but when I can, you will laugh your heads off, it's beyond absurd. They are grasping at straws.

It is also worth considering that the exams they are asking us to resit are the very same exams on which our ATPL's are based, so why not take our ATPL's away as well...?

Also, the CAA is happy to put an EK earned A330 rating on my JAR/EASA licence as long as I present amongst other things; A copy of the non JAR TRE's authority, and a copy of my non JAR licence. And they're spouting off about how we need bilateral agreements, but they're happy to accept all of this non JAR stuff for a type rating!! The more you look at this case, the more you realise that they genuinely have no idea about how aviation really works.

It will be interesting to see how the pilots from all the other european countries react when they see that they've been shafted as well under EASA. I suspect they won't be quite so 'British' about it?

Anyway, we are in the process of setting up a petition etc., because I'm not letting this one drop; They screwed up, have admitted it, and so should provide a temporary remedy to sort it.

All I can ask is that everybody keeps hassling the CAA, if we do nothing then we are guaranteed to lose this.

Thanks for the comprehensive DW.

FM, interesting that you stated, "CAA is happy to put an EK earned A330 rating on my JAR/EASA licence as long as I present amongst other things; A copy of the non JAR TRE's authority, and a copy of my non JAR licence." the buggers wouldn't agree to this in my case for my 744 licence based from an ICAO recognised carrier in Asia. Seems a bit arbitrary to me...oh well :ugh:

All the best with the lawyers...

Meridian Star

Meridian,

I will dig out the e-mail received from the CAA and post it here.

I think your statement sums up the situation well, the CAA are arbitrary and random because basically they aren't sure of what they are doing themselves. I've been told this by more than one ops inspector when discussing the Licencing dept. Raymond Elgy who runs it basically gets his minions to deal with our e-mails and doesn't give a sh*t about our concerns or complaints

FM.

thanks for bring this one back to the surface chaps.....i had resigned it to the 'too difficult' tray based on protracted dealings with the CAA and my plans to stay with an Asia Carrier. i.e. if i lose my job, i can redo the exams if i want or need to; if i lose my health, can't get a job anyway.

time for a re-attack!

Quite simply, they no longer have the power to make arbitary decisions. They have to follow EASA FCL. I've written to them regarding how they're going to implement the the foreign rating bit, but not had a reply yet. I await with interest - and fully expecting a PFO letter in return. Then I'm going to go in for the attack. It's interesting that CAP804 is a series of verbatim quotes from EASA FCL with CAAA comments on hown the regs will be implemented, exceot they offered no comments on this matter. I strongly suspect they want us to pay them money to take more exams.

I'm in the process of writing to the Irish AA about how they plan to implement it. After all, we have the choice about where our licence is issued!

FM - Good luck with your action. I look forward to hearing the results.

As I understand our present situation LASORS is still valid until CAP804 comes into force on 1st July. Therefore we are going to submit a legal claim based on an illegal implementation of the rule change, regardless of whether the CAA said it was incorrect in the first place.

There is no point pursuing the stupidity of the situation at the moment, regardless of how wrong it is, not until EASA regs are in force and we can enlist the support of all European pilots.

I am in the process of creating a simple to use online petition, and a college and is writing a letter to Andrew Haines (Chief Executive of the CAA) to hopefully arrange a meeting in London to discuss the whole situation. As you all know trying to correspond from abroad is a laborious process....

Regarding it being a desire for us to cough up more cash, I'm not so sure, I don't think there's that much money in it for them, plus I don't think they really know what's going on, if in doubt, quote the rules and hope this all goes away...

We need to emphasise that we are not trying to change the rules, merely, that we want a window of opportunity to renew our IR's and then carry on as per the regs.

FM.

F.M.

Know quite a few people here in M.E. who have lapsed I/R's

including myself

keep us up to date with whats going on

if the CAA just want money why can't they just say it

S.L.

Actually, I don't think it's about the money, it's more to do with blind obeyance of the rules...

I'm in the ME with EK. When I get the petition up I'll be sending it out to all forums

Petition online
 

Greetings,

I've created an online petition at Change.org - Start, Join, and Win Campaigns for Change but for some reason cannot find it if I try to search for it as if I am a member of the public. I've e-mailed the website for information regarding this.

On the offchance you manage to find it, it is titled;

UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams

Pass the word, let's not roll over on this and I'll let you know about accessability issues as I get answers, but try to find it if you can in the meantime.

Hi have just signed; your link takes you to the open page of the (US) petition site, you then have to do a search e.g. "uk caa" to find your petition, which may be a Bridge too Far for some of our more Luddite colleagues.. can you embed a link straight to your petition. ? Cheers..Keep up the good work..:ok::ok:

Petition: UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams | Change.org

Does this help, let me know if this link get you to where you need to be.

I am planning to hopefully meet an aviation lawyer in Dubai next week to discuss matters.

Yes this worked for me, good work.

Folks,

Latest is that myself and another EK Capt are plodding away. He has sent a letter explaining our situation to his MP, who has acknowledged said letter and has said that he will forward it to the Minister of Transport. It's a long shot but it's just one of a few 'leverage' points we are formulating. I am in the process of drafting a letter fully explaining our position to the Chief Exec of the CAA as we have received a reply from him (Andrew Haines) to a previous letter we sent. I will copy in the BALPA lady who has previously been involved, plus one of the EASA rule makers.

We can only hope..

Please keep spreading the word, the more people we get the better our case.

1) 7-years, or once every 5 years for licence renewal?
I thought you needed a current medical and to have had an IR check (within 5 years) to renew your UK-JAR licence when it expires every 5 years? I have been doing my A320-IR once every 5 years in Singapore with a JAA approved TRE... I therefore dont understand what this rule about 7 years is about?

2) Can we finally use 6-monthly local checks to keep our UK licence current with
What I would REALLY like is parity with other EU countries that accept local recurrent 6-monthly sim checks, and give pilots the IR on their EU licence (restricted to B-registered aircraft only). This would then save having to book a sim once every five years....

3) Renewal of medicals before EASA transition on 17th September
I was informed that "if the pilot renews [his medical] after EASA dates with expired JAA [medical], then need to renew all tests, but if with current status then renew whatever is due eg. ECG." Does this mean you effectively have to do an initial Class 1 medical all over again? Do I only have to renew the expired items, or the additional items in a class 1 medical?

Thanks FM signature has been added.

Everybody,

Thanks for signing the petition, we are up to nearly 90 signees and counting. But please keep spreading the word as obviously the more people who sign up will add weight to our cause. Even pilots not planning to return back to the UK should be encouraged to sign up as it helps the cause, plus, as we all know as expats, circumstances can change unexpectedly in the places we live and we may be coming home not of our own accord.

Thx,

FM.

UK CAA 7 year rule for UK IR's. Petition and legal proceedings.
 

I've posted this on other forums, it may flesh out what we are proposing...

Dear fellow Aviators,

This information pertains to any pilot who has been issued a UK CAA professional licence (JAR or National) and have moved abroad to work under another ICAO licence;

If you possess a UK issued professional licence the publication to refer to is a manual called LASORS (LICENSING, ADMINISTRATION and STANDARDISATION,
OPERATING REQUIREMENTS and SAFETY), this publication is valid until 1st July 2012 at which point CAP 804 will come into force as its replacement under EU-OPS. CAP 804 is the UK CAA's version of Part-FCL (Previously called JAR-FCL).These 2 documents lay out how to attain, maintain and if necessary revalidate your licence.

The matter to which I draw your attention pertains to holders of a UK CAA issued Instrument Rating (IR), more specifically, the requirements for renewing that rating. Up to and including LASORS 2008 there was a clause in Section E of the publication that took into account the utilisation of your ICAO (In this case non UK) or military IR. I quote/paraphrase directly from LASORS 2008;

"To renew an IR(A) that has expired by more than 7 years, applicants must: ...For multi-pilot aircraft pass a type rating skill test with or observed by a UK CAA Flight Operations Training Inspector. Applicants will also be required to retake the IR(A) theoretical knowledge examinations."

However, and most importantly for the affected pilots (Mostly expats);

"...where IR privileges have been exercised in another category of aircraft (i.e. UK/JAR IR(H)) or under the privileges of an ICAO licence (Aeroplanes and Helicopters) or under a UK military IR qualification (fixed-wing or rotary), the renewal requirements will be based on the expiry date of that IR."

In other words as long as you kept your other ICAO IR valid your UK IR was safe from the 7 year renewal rule and most importantly we wouldn't have to undergo the ridiculous requirement to resist the 7 theory exams, the very same exams on which our CPL/ATPL's are predicated.

Now the bad news, WITHOUT ANY PRIOR WARNING, the CAA removed the ICAO/Military caveat, in an instant rendering 100's of UK issued IR's invalid. The authority state that the rule shouldn't have been there in the first place and was therefor removed, this despite all the other JAR authorities entering into the spirit of the agreement and renewing licences/IR's that had expired by more than 7 years when the pilot produced reasonable proof that he/she had stayed current, for example, flown for an airline. The CAA took the rule at face value and applied it literally, with no thought of the consequences. They have in effect taken away our careers as a licence without an IR is basically worthless. When queried recently as to why they didn't pre warn us of the impending change, and after all they are very quick to criticise us for not referring to the CAA website for these matters, the reply was.... They didn't want to potentially upset our families in case we were deceased. So you see what we're up against... Nuff said really. Although not confirmed, it may be the case that you have to go to an approved school to do your ground studies, obviously completely unacceptable given most of our circumstances.

I haven't got enough space to go into all the details and futile attempts we have made to get the CAA to see sense, so what a few of us are doing is taking legal advice to challenge, not the rule change itself, but the way in which the change was implemented, in effect, without any warning. We have also sent our case to an MP who has stated he will pass it onto the Minister of Transport. The CAA have admitted 'that they could have communicated the change better', the implication being that there was some communication in the first place, which was not the case.

Without even considering the fact that they are treating professional pilots like novices, consideration is also being given to legally pursuing the costs that the authority have in effect imposed on us if we have to do the 7 ground exams. Ground courses, costs of books, exam fees and other incidental costs. As we all know money is a big part of the CAA's thinking, so several hundred pilots multiplied by several thousands of pounds costs each may get them to pay attention and not hide behind their rule books?

So, what can you could do to help? An online petition has been created to add weight to our cause, the link is below, and I ask that you add your signature and a message if you wish. Equally important is that you spread the word to other affect colleagues who don't read PPRuNe. We are preparing and planning to lodge a legal complaint prior to the introduction of CAP 804 so that we have date stamped our claim based on LASORS regulations. Even pilots who don't plan to return to EASA land should be encouraged to sign up, as you never know what path your career may take.

Personal enquiries/complaints to the CAA, your MP and EASA should also be a consideration to keep the pressure up on the authority.

Good luck!

Chris.

The link is;

Petition: UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resiting exams | Change.org

121 signatures so far - and counting. Keep them coming!

129 and counting...:ok:

The search function on Change.org appears inop at the moment. I cannot find the petition. Any suggestions?:{

The website seems to be a little glitchy today. Find the direct link on one of the other posts or type in UK CAA in the search window in the website itself.

FM.

We are at 201 signatures and counting, however, can all of you ask other affected pilots who don't read Pprune to sign up as well. We only have until Sept 17th to lodge a legal complaint as LASORS will be obsolete and CAP804 will come into force at which point I presume the CAA can wash their hands of this and pass it onto EASA.

FM

Signed the petition.....thanks for your work on this FM. Also thanks to Dan W for his work on this issue. Cheers chaps!

Update
 

Just a wee update;

As things stand we are still in talks with a law company and the government. I have a couple of small requests of everybody who is involved/affected by this ruling;

1. We have received a reply from the government. The Minister of Transport is now aware of our case. The first letter we received contained 2 interesting points. Firstly she admitted that the guidance that the CAA provided was in error. An admission of guilt? Secondly she stated that the rules had been in place for 12 years, we can only assume that she was referring to the creation of JAR? We're not exactly sure what she means. Anyway, we have written back to the MP requesting more information whilst also fleshing out our case. This includes informing them that there is a petition online. I think this will make them realise that we are serious in regards to this matter. So my request to you is to get as many to sign up as possible. Our thanks in advance.

2. As we are now approaching the point where we may be looking at taking legal action, the two of us leading the case would appreciate any other legal angles in addition to what has already been provided, that you feel may be appropriate to help us apply pressure to the CAA/Govt.

One thing is for sure if we give up now then we're guarenteed not to have a favourable outcome. If you are willing, keep writing letters/e-mails or phone to show your displeasure at what is going on.

Chris:ok:

Thought
 

Hello Chris

a thought which is probably not original, however, the day before this change of policy took place we all had a valid IR based on the rules at the time.
If the CAA want to use another interpretation i.e. the 7 year ruling, then should it not apply from the day of change?

Anything else is retrospective.

Regards

Actually Twenty, I think you have an interesting point. I'll pass it on to the lawyers.

Thanks very much.

I have just spoken to someone who works for the government and asked what the affected pilots should do. His answer was to write to your MP, even if you don't live in the UK. If you have property include your address in your letter of protest.

Also mention that the Transport Ministry has in some way admitted some degree of error, in that they admit the CAA's 'guidance was in error'

Time is short, even if it's just a couple of paragraphs it will help. The change.org page can also be copied and pasted.

FM.

Macau ATPL
 

How about converting ones Hong Kong ATPL to a "Macau" ATPL...seeing as Macau is linked to Portugal...then a Portuguese EASA ATPL ???

Not sure about this... Thoughts anyone?

IR EXAMS
 

I just went to the CAA today during a 24 hr layover in LHR with a view to re-newing my UK JAR ATPL which expires mid August.
I was told that....'There might be a problem'...... She said I haven't utilized my JAR IR in over 8years, and the 320 rating I had has lapsed, but I replied "So what".....I have a few thousand hrs PIC 330 /340 and now B777 on the ICAO ATPL I flew into heathrow with this morning..... The lady said .....I know, it's confusing... She was almost whispering!!!!!. Guys I thought 320 and 330 were a common TYPE.....????? You can fly both at once... So I thought, that by having 330 on my ICAO licence, I could at least re-new my JAR Licence even though 320 had lapsed. The licence renewal form states that if you fly a common 'Type' or Class on your ICAO licence, then a valid type rating is not required on the JAR licence.
I reckon the CAA staff are confused with this ridiculous rule......just as much as I am.

BUT........bottom line is guys..... i want job security in case I lose my job in the UAE tomorrow, I am no longer employable...

What are these 7 exams we have to do, and where can they be found..???? Shouldn't be that difficult.

I know it's the principle behind this ludicrous rule change that has sickened us all, BUT..... We still need info on What we need to do exactly to revalidate our JAR licences.... What are the exams, where can I get exam papers to study..

I asked them at the CAA what I should do...!!! the reccomendation was to let my JAR ATPL expire, and then request an EASA ATPL after the 17th September...
Bearing in mind I will have no type rating on the EASA licence or an IR....so the exams will still have to be done. Load a sh'*e.........

Bear with us for a little bit. BALPA are now firmly on our side and are going to have another go at the authority. The petition is on the BALPA website and we are getting a lot of support from British pilots.

I'm sending some more letters this week after I've done my 6 monthly spam can session. I will be raising the issue of 'Impact assessment' which is a government document that clearly wasn't followed.

In the mean time, please, please write to your UK MP's or the secretary of state for transport Justine Greening or Theressa Villiers who has Aviation as part of her ministerial remit. Phone and write to the CAA expressing your displeasure.

Keep poking and prodding......you never know....

Wrote a letter to my local MP.

Turns out it was like talking to Yangon Radio...nothing heard back.

Well, like you said, we keep up the pressure.


WAB.

its easa's fault
 

guys, my concern with this is that uk caa will just say they are
following easa rules and you have to deal with them . i would rather bombard
easa hq with questions and petitions but it's a secret organisation they
set the rules but you cant contact them. writing to european parliment members with talk of loss of employment and reference to european court of human rites may be another course

Update
 

Hi,

Just a quick update for those of you not in the petition, we are expecting a decision on the matter in the next few weeks. A proposal has been sent to EASA and is in the process of being presented to the European Commission.

I'll get back to you as soon as we have some news,

C.

Great work.....thanks for all of your efforts:ok:

Al last!
 

:D Thank you very much Fart Master, I received an exemption for having to repass my exams from Cliff Whittaker today. I'm certain they would not have backed down were it not for the pressure you exerted.
CAA Ref 201305291R

Sounds like there may be some positive news coming out of this thread and the petition ... As one affected by this where can I find an update or further details?

Thanks to all who have put the effort into getting the CAA to see sense in this matter.

I just signed the petition "UK Civil Aviation Authority: Temp approval for affected pilots to renew their IR without resitting exams" on Change.org.

It's important. Will you sign it too? Here's the link:

http://www.change.org/petitions/uk-c...share_petition

Just to clarify, It's not just me whose exempt from retaking the exams, everyone who has maintained an IR on a different ICAO Licence is now also exempt.

I've tried to copy/attach the letter and post for all but no joy.