HKG ATC out of control
 

I need to vent....I think HKG used to be good, infact used to be excellent....NOW that lots of the westerners leaving, you can honestly see the difference!!..You are slowly becoming the worst ATC in the world..

Stupid zig zagging vectors and slow downs and delays because of a single cumulus cloud somewhere in the HKG airspace.
40mins the other day sitting at holding point in line behind many others for 07R departure......finally taxi clearance to cross the runway over to Kilo for change of runway 25L...Then here is the best part...

"cleared for takeoff, caution 7 knots of tailwind!"
So who's F:ugh:ucking:ugh:bright idea was this???

There is this brilliant iphone app called "flight control", perhaps it could be used as HKG ATC training tool..
:ugh:

I can honestly write that I am so much more at ease when I hear that gweillo voice on the radio, especially around bad weather. The control is simply superior. I have experienced excellent control from Asians as well, but the consistency is not there.

I suppose the racist accusations are coming so I will take cover, but that honestly has nothing to do with it. Good control is good control regardless of nationality.

OK. How about on approach, if certain airlines that shall remain nameless (Korean, China Airlines) decide to slow down at their own discretion, rather than getting everybody behind them to slow down, get them to resume 300 knots on descent! That would fix many problems for a start.

Secondly, how about using some sense when leaving aircraft high, slowing them down and then expecting them to cross waypoints at unachievable attitudes.

And that Betty Buzzsaw lady on approach gives me a headache at the best of times, even before she snaps and snarls at everybody!

I love it when I get zigzagged left and right 90 degrees at 280 kts assigned, then when I ask if he wants me to slow down, I get a 'no, maintain 280'.
Going nowhere fast.

CxorsistIf you standby the comment you've made towards the end then you should never stated "guilo is better " in the beginning of your comments.

ATC management and HKG government policy is going to cause an accident sooner or later. Mix that with out zero hour aviators and I think it will be sooner than later!

Agreed. In my third decade flying in and out of Hong Kong and with any weather about it is really getting a worry.

Another thing that I have noticed recently has been the poor quality of the weather forecasts.

The entrails of what animal have the Observatory being using lately?

Etops777,

I'm afraid your PC exceeds my comprehension.

The gweillos in HKG are better controllers. That clear enough for you?

Oh and GOD help us with a third runway!!!!!...
The delays will be hours on every flight if this bullshi? keeps up:ugh:


Another note......Did anybody realise the words
"Situational Awareness" don't translate to cantonese!..I guess thats why they have none eh:(

The being kept high and fast seems more like an ATC SOP nowadays than an exception.....Maybe we should start equiping our aircraft with Parachutes like some of those single engine aircraft have...solves the problem

All these comments seem fair and on target, but when I need perspective, I just fly to Beijing a few times.

That only makes me appreciate HK all the more.

Cheers boys!

FR

...that may be, but HKG is rapidly descending to Beijing's level.

We need help!
 

The ATC Gweillos have have been neutralised and marginalised, and are staying below the radar for fear of.......................
We're losing 5+ next year, 'time expired'!
So don't expect too much feedback or support. Last years press releases screwed us!

We have a poorly designed terminal for movement of traffic to/from, and we have mountainous terrain all around us, thanks to Norman Foster and the legacy of the ex colonial govt. hell bent on locating the airport in the "Territory" next to Lantau/Sunset Peak.


We have seen the 'flood gates' open as to the number of aircraft / airlines flying into CLK, only to be made more complex with the overflights to/from Pearl River Delta. Throw in the recent weather, and the system near collapsed on several recent bad wx days. 40+ - 60 mins delays entering the FIR and diversions and fuel emergencies. That's part of the recipe for high threat and error! TCAS RA are not an acceptable form of ATC separation for the prevention of collision.

+ The level of airmanship and RTF discipline and 'intelligibility' is at an all time LOW! Up to x3 tx to est. contact and / or pass the instruction = unacceptable.
Misconstrued readbacks, wrong levels, "confirm, confirm, confirm" by every mainland Chinese airline, and more! e.g. We don't need squawk and level on each frequency change within HK airspace as has now crept in.
Ensure one crew has a headset on whilst in the HKFIR and/or turn up the 'speaker volume'. Otherwise bring back the flight engineer as there's no excuse for lack of priority for ATC tx regardless of your x2 man crew. A safety issue!

Agreed, ATC handling has gone backwards with more aircraft in the FIR to process due to lack of sufficient 'sectors' therefore increased RTF workload proportionately per controller and no support (from our esteemed DGCA) for more staff NOW, regardless of the PR spin! 2+ yrs before the new centre and the system at present is at the limit and exceeded with weather.
No difference between day and night tfc but reduced manning from midnight.

Descent profiles: ATC will always battle different airlines/aircraft types/pilot variations and therefore we need standardisation of crossing levels and speeds, but then you (ATC) get criticised for changing the profile and unnecessary fuel burn, etc etc, 'damned if you do and damned if you don't. Expect more holding!

AMAN - Arrival Manager computer is being used correctly and but varies with each 'different' flow controller. To follow it religiously as management mandate, we can end up with the 'ridiculous' radar vectors for the compliance of AMAN entry time and the pilots quite rightly should be 'pissed'. Min speeds to meet the time, then speed up, then slow down, screw up the profile for you and following aircraft, it just looks bad from our side too.
It should be 'Minimal vectoring' for 2 - 3 minute delay otherwise we should be using the orbit or hold to soak up the time and fine tune / or even change the sequence wrt other arrivals from the other 2 of 3 entry gates within 40 NM from 'touch'.
Simple but some 2D controllers just don't get it!! Expect more holding!

The only change likely is if the pilots get together and demand change, so do what ya got to do.

Cxorcist

I don't believed so. There are good and bad ones in each and every group. For you to claim that an expats are the better controllers than the Asians then you are just too narrow minded. Enough said...like Hollywood once made a movie called "The white man can't jump"..and if the movie imply on your logic it stands for " The Asians can't control the traffics"..

If you want to see hkg weather look at macau! Much more accurate than hong kong.

Maybe they are also gettingbrid of the experienced guys at theobservatory!

Bigots??
 

kinteafrokunta Quote " Oh, when are the Chinese coming in and get rid of these bigoted gweilos. Insufferable pieces of work ****ting in their own rice bowls!"

Noting that you are in South Africa, one would have thought that you would have had some empathy with those complaining of declining standards.

Or are you just as much of a bigot as those whom you accuse?

This thread is about Safety, not bigotry. There is no room for appeasement where Safety is concerned, not even to keep you happy!

It's not a racist issue. It's an experience and finacial issue. The ex-pats have not had their ex-pat allownces included in their contract renewals, so they've been saying "bugger this - I'm off". Their replacements have been new ATC controllers on local contracts which of course mean local Chinese controllers.

The big problem is, these newly trained controllers don't have regional airports to cut their teeth and gain experience. They're thrust striaght into the deep end - as if a new ATC cadet in the UK has been put stright into the approach controller's position at London Centre instsead of working his/her way up from Norwich tower. It's not the controller's fault. Blame the system that put them there, and the managers whose main aim is to save money.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.

Etops,

Your two posts have a rather poor standard of English, not entirely unlike Chinese ATC. Your comments demonstrate a level of thickness and surface level understanding only which I again compare to ... Chinese ATC. They are mostly unable to grasp the three dimensional picture as gweillos controllers are.

Bring in Heathrow, Kennedy, or O'Hare controllers and HKG could double its efficiency and capacity in a week. Even with the crappy approach / departure corridors and high terrain all around, they would find a way to get it done. These two runways are nowhere near full utilization. Of course, they might need an ATC penalty box for all the similarly pathetic Asian pilots driving many of these aircraft.

It's not racism, it's reality. The mainland can kick out all the expats, but all that will be accomplished is the further marginalization of an already struggling air traffic system.

Just ask Kunta in South Africa... Can you say, "Failed State?" That's what happens when you kick out all the educated and productive members of society.

The policy of localization is racist, but the locals want locals doing all the jobs. China First policy.

Problem is it takes time for someone (anyone) to go from qualified to proficient. The locals have not spent enough time on the job to be as good as the experienced round eyes. This is compounded by the rapid promotion of the locals into the better paid, lower risk and more respected management positions.

CFP Fuel isn't enough for HKG arrival even on a good wx day. The volume of traffic and the inexperience of the HKG local controllers means delays. Add bad wx and it all turns to ****. We don't pay for fuel (and we sure don't get a decent profit share) so why not put on the fuel to make delays a non-issue?

so, why not take CFP, and divert when you reach your diversion fuel? Once you get to that level, the decision's made for you.

Complaints from pilots & controllers, even through official channels like the AOA & HKATCA, will not yield results. The reality is that commercial pressure (ie from CX & KA) is the only thing that will achieve any improvement. When CX/KA start getting 10 - 20 diversions a day, especially when there's little to no weather about, then things will change.

Broadband, you beat me to it!

Because the reality is on a good day even with a bit of holding you always have enough to land in HKG...show me one example of an aircraft having to divert to Macau because of excessive holding.

On a bad day you would be an idiot to carry CFP fuel.

I don't mind diverting when it adds to the EFP tab, assuming no dinner plans. The rest of the time, it is at least an extra half hour for me. :)

Exactly.. that Emirates on 07L earned me .6 @ double EFP.. paid for some concert tickets. Love the uselessness of the new batch of controllers. Can't wait for a third runaway. It will buy my boat.:ok:

I think at least you got the first name correct of who is responsible for this mess!

Nice roof mind.

PS. Who is the 'angry young man' in the tower?

You want perspective ? Trying flying into good old Perth, Western Australia, half the traffic, no terrain, bugger all weather, no airspace issues and almost as bad delays.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that ATC in AUS can be terrible also. ADL, more than one plane in the sky and things can slow down.

What has it got to do with the shocking HKG ATC? Because some other places have issues it is OK to have incompetence in HKG? It is OK to have very inexperienced controllers in a very busy part of the world loosing the plot when there are some clouds?

Your argument seems to be based on race, white guys in AUS are bad so stop complaining about the asians in HKG? Is that it? Some people are missing the point.

The real issue is not race Sloppy Joe, but experience.

Some individuals (not just on PPRuNe) try to make it about race, in an attempt to brush over the real issue - experience.

When they were hiring expats, the min experience requirements to even get interview meant that only ultra-experienced candidates were considered. Post '97, with "localisation" came the idea of training locals from scratch.

As Dan Winterland correctly points out:

Pretty much spot on. In busier parts of the world, you get there after many years of "earning" your credentials.

I guess ATC is suffering from the same race to the bottom, led by professional accountant-managers.

Might be a good time for ships to make a comeback. Where did I put that Italian cruise line ticket... :hmm:

yes, Broadband,you are correct. It does all boil down to experience.....BUT....In H.K. ,they now not only have a lot of inexperienced controllers,we are burdened with a lot of really below average controllers,some bordering on incompetent, whose command of English is very poor and who cannot ad-lid,can't think outside the box,have no idea of what common sense means and simply,really don't know what A.T.C. is trying to achieve. This is fact, not just a racist thing.:ugh:Things will only get worse as the experienced expats leave. By 2015 ,I think that there will only be a dozen or so left . Good luck,keep a sharp look-out.

NOT JUST CONTROLLERS
 

QUOTE:They're thrust striaght into the deep end - as if a new ATC cadet in the UK has been put stright into the approach controller's position at London Centre instsead of working his/her way up from Norwich tower. It's not the controller's fault. Blame the system that put them there, and the managers whose main aim is to save money.

At the end of the day, you get what you pay for. In this case, safety is being compromised to fulfil a budget.

Sounds pretty much like new pilot recruits.

It sounds chaotic in the HK airspace:confused:

250kts for transition - 230kts thru FL130 - 200kts on downwind. Followed by, you guessed it, radar vectors to join final at 1500' so tight that we are going to fly thru the glideslope before gaining the LOC. Only VMC conditions allow us to start down as we join - not an everyday condition with the weather and pollution these days.

On the job training is not an acceptable method to train controllers for the kind of flying in HKG.

Some of the most difficult ATC direction I've had in the past year was at EWR/TEB. For example, I was giving a heading to intercept at EWR and the turn to final was 110 degrees,,,, (a little more than the customary 30 degrees eh?). I heard from an FAA inspector that over 50% had been there less than a year. Whatever the accurate number is, it shows a great deal of transition. I didn't care to ask if the controller was Chinese or French or US or both or all three.

In my book, HK is far better than similar places like JED or DXB, I'd give them a mark of "upper half" in my world wide rankings.

FR

HKG ATC isn't too bad (not un safe), just incompetent due to a lack of experience. One sector will have you a min speed, the next at barbers pole, so not very efficient. But considering their lack of experience, they are doing their best.

Aussi ATC is different. Couldn't manage a piss up at the brewery, but think they are the best in world. Speed control for arrival slots a bad joke (probably wastes more fuel than HKG ATC), think they are busy (when they are not), will file against you for the smallest of perceived violations (how many miles off track must you be to be off track?).

LHR - best controllers in the world. Friggen superb! Do as your told (speed and vertical profile), everyone nicely spaced. No drama. If HKG or Aussi ATC could be halve as good as LHR we would be onto a good thing.

Hear, hear - and what's more, they do it without the aggro that is so prevalent amongst Australian and US controllers.

Aussi ATC
 

..... second best in the world !!!

Sloppy Joe, you couldn't be more off track if you DRed from HKG-LHR.

Just saying that HK are not the worst around considering what they are up against, not saying that they shouldn't be better.

As for the race card, jeezuz, even the leftiest of lefties would have had trouble coming up with that one, good effort.

Baron Captain....Phew, where do I start?..."rapidly becoming the worst ATC in the World" eh? Now that's a pretty subjective call. It's so easy to chuck around epithets in a semi public domain, and then feel good about it.

I'd just like to discuss your comments about runway changes. For starters you have your point of residence as "Australia", and yet you insinuate that you have lot's of HKG operating experience. So may I surmise you're CX Aussie based? Anyway Ocker, I would have thought by now, that any CX pilot operating here (HKG) would be well aware that for probably more than 50% of any one day, we have a downwind component at every one of the four runway thresholds...I think it might have something to do with the huge lumps of terrain that encircles this airport! So, what to do? Eventually we have to make big decisions as to whether to run with the 7's, or go to 25. This is predicated somewhat by: the amount of downwind reports that our highly sophisticated instruments (and pilot reports) are telling us; windshear and turbulence; forecast wind trends; reported winds at 500' to 1500'; and of course disposition of traffic. We take all of these issues into account and then have to make the big decision as to whether or not to change runway direction. Changing runways is a total pain in the arse, for us (as controllers) and for the industry in general. Some RWY changes can take nearly an hour from inception to completion. If you think that we take this lightly, well I assess you as being a fool. Sure, you get frustrated and you vent your spleen about reaching the 25L departure point, only to be told "....downwind 7kts clear for take-off", but we have a wind environment here that we struggle with on a daily - no make that hourly basis, to come to grips with. Every runway change that we do causes back ups that can sometimes take hours to sort out the subsequent mess.

Any useful guidance from you as to how to get around this wind situation in HKG would be greatly appreciated, but somehow I doubt it.

HKG has an AMAN nuff said
 

pointless slow downs , delays !!!! HKG has an AMAN