Hong Kong Schooling, is your child primary 1 Sep 2012?
 

We are just wondering if there are any other Hong Kong based CX staff having trouble getting their children into an affordable international school, our child starts primary 1 in September. We did not get any ESF interviews (Cathay covers 90 per cent of these school) we applied to 3 ESF (yes we applied when we should have) and are currently number 700 on the list at one, 430 at another (in our zone) and 230 at another. We have applied to 4 other 75 per cent covered schools, we got accepted into one but the fees are $125 thousand per year (CX covers 75 per cent of this ) plus we have an annual capital levy of $50.000 that has no subsidy from CX.

There is another CX staff in our building who also did not get any ESF interviews (90 per cent covered by CX) for the coming school year primary one. The guy we spoke to in our building that is in our position also said he’s looking elsewhere for a job as he’s not prepared for the family separation if he has to send his family home to be schooled.

We have also found another family who came back to HK for a command and was told that they could have a place at the Aussie school if they paid the 1 million dollar debenture.

We have been HK based CX staff for 10 years and have had our daughter on international school lists that are not ESF for over 2 years. The school fees with the CX help are achievable but the increasing capital levies and debentures (not CX subsidised) are getting beyond our reach. Or if you have not had your child on the list for over 18 months to 2 years you have no chance of a place in the current school climate.

We have spoken with a union rep but schooling is way down on the list, so
We would appreciate any feedback from guys whom are in the same position or could be in the same position. What’s your plan? Thanks for your time, its most appreciated.

Advise your family leave HK
and this nonsense.

Move to Phuket- enroll them in PIA

Great school- clean air- much nicer people to deal
with- proper expat culture.

You commute.

You'll never look back. Lots of CX guys there now
doing the same. Time to leave HK to the Chinese.

flyingkiwi,
check your pm's

Penang Malaysia is also a good option to consider too.

I find it hard to believe that you know of a family who came to HK from Australia and they were not offered a place in AISHK. They have a policy of always accepting the children of people who come to HK mid term.
If you are Australian you do not need to pay a levy, just the $10,000 January ripoff. I have never heard of them not accepting an Australian child who applied at the "right time".
As for ESF, there is a shortage that the HK government wont publicly acknowledge (must not provide whitey, i mean English, education in the glorious workers paradise).

Mr Hankey

would you like the persons contact number, The school did have a change of heart and told them if they donated a very large figure they would find a place for there child. (try 7 figures)

You are very out of touch, the Aussie school capital levy is now 13k per year (not covered by education allowance) and there is a waiting list.. they cant let you in just because your an aussie or kiwi if there are no more spaces.

and as for a big secret about lack of positions in ESF would you like me to link the articles in both the standard and scmp on this issue.

If people are having similar problems PM me, i need some more ammo, the AOA has said they are not interested as it affects such a small %, ie only those with kids just hitting schooling age, but i feel this is a massive issue and one that anyone contemplating returning to HK for a command better check into as its hard enough getting a 5 year old into a school but from what we are hearing getting an older kid in is next to impossible.

We had our two sons at Kellett School for Primary 1 through 3, then - as this was a much cheaper alternative which also offered more sports and other outdoor opportunities - enrolled them at Australian boarding schools. Never looked back.

at your kids?

Al i have no issue with the Aussie school but if you tried to enrol them today, you would be fat out of luck

What he said. :D

I have to agree with turnandburn.

Why have you only put your child's name down 2 years prior to starting school?What were you doing for the 2-3 years earlier? If you have been here for 10 years you should have known that schooling is an issue and to put him/her down as soon as possible (as soon as they have a birth certificate).

I do feel for your situation, but it is through choices you made. It's not the AOA's fault. Although , maybe as part as a welcome/new joiners pack, it can be emphasized how hard it is to get children into school in Hong Kong and use your case as an example.

Good luck

I am planning to cross the PRD to HKA as DE Capt A330, but am struggling:

1) Wife wont live in a highrise shoebox
2) Schools want HK$70k/child to fast track the lists
3) HKA does not subsidise schools/accomodation
4) Total HKA pay is HK$120k-ish gross, from which to pay school and accom.

I am not a magician, so if anyone knows one, please can you help me find a way to square this circle? On paper, HKA looks like a good long-term career move, but if I cant find school places and somewhere to live I am stuck....

All I can suggest is invent a time machine, go back to the 1980's or early nineties and join Cathay Pacific. That's when they paid A Scale; this and the other expat benefits made these problems go away.

A continuous succession of pilots undercutting their forebears, the latest being the CX iCadets, is making expat aviation careers in Hong Kong untenable.

You could consider commuting from elsewhere in Asia. Maybe there are other PPRuNers with the gen on living in Macau.

Good luck.

flyingkiwi

I understand your predicament and it not only effects you but everyone else who has tried to enroll their kids in school. Or better yet - has there kids in school.

One thing that everyone seems to miss is the standard of education that is being offered for their kids. The schools are hard to get into but the standard of teaching in HK has fallen dramatically over the last 10-15 years. When a friend of mine was head hunted for a teaching position here 20 years ago the standard was very high. Now-a-days the standard she said has fallen because of limited slots and pay reductions, eroded over time. She left HK a year or to ago because she could not morally accept what was happening to the education system in HK. She was in a private school that had a huge proportion of Ex-Pat kids in it. Little pay increases, longer hours, constantly undermined my the new teachers that had little or no education or teaching experience. (Reminds me of another industry).

Standards in teaching has fallen over time in HK.

I for one have hired a private teacher to education my children. I will be sending to a boarding school overseas to receive a better education when they reach the appropriate age.

Would I leave my job to help my kids get a better education?? Good question. I would take my kids out of HK to get them a better education.

CZ

Bean Counters
 

If you know any expat teachers in HK (as I do), ask them about the erosion of their T & Cs over the years. In exactly the same way as airline bean counters have attacked our T & Cs, teachers & probably a number of other professionals, have been devalued.

If you know any teacher employed by ESF, ask them their opinion of their CEO. The comments will be stronger than comments by CX pilots about the current CX CEO. In fact the sheer contempt they have for their CEO has very scary parallels to some of the opinions we had of a previous CEO, initials DT.

Thanks for you comments everyone.
 

Hang on,

We applied to 7 schools.

3 ESF schools during the only month last year they were open for applications. We are 700 on one list, 430 on another and 230 on another. No interviews. We are permanent residents, so this is not a factor as some may think. We are 430 on a list at a school that is zoned solely for our area.

CX offers 90 percept subsidies for these schools.

The other 4 schools, 75 per cent subsidy

Aussie school - $1500.00 HK dollars gets you on the list for 2 years prior to starting.

Harrow - $1000 dollars got us an interview with Fees $125000 per year and a capital levy of $50000 yearly. That’s nearly an extra $5000.00 0n top 25% per month we will pay.

South Lantau primary- We have gone from 19 to 33rd place school that takes only 12 new students because of other priorities. By the way then where?

The 4th well there is a possibility of getting onto there waiting list for a place after the interview, we have had our daughter on this list for 3.5 years. Again the fees are $150000 per year with a levy.

You ask what are we doing with our money? Probably the same as you, but why should you be paying $1000 dollars a month for school fees at ESF plus bus when the guy next door is paying levy’s and getting a 75 per cent subsidy for his school in this current climate, it’s hard to get into the ESF school. Discovery collage and the Aussie school are nearly on par in yearly fees not including the Aussie school levy.

The above people have obviously got their kids into a school so therefore please refrain from your rude banter we are doing everything we can to exhaust our options.
You may even have your child in the ESF system so are getting the cheap ride under the CX school scheme that some of us have not the privilege in having.

I have posted this because I would like to see if there are any others in the same position as us so that we can solve it together. My wife and children are important, I am hoping to have them not go back to our homeland and become a commuter. We enjoy our life in Hong Kong if you’re not happy at CX then leave; your rude comments are not needed here.

Yep, sure am in the same predicament - wait for the high school gig, it just starts all over again.

Maybe all this unnecessary reproduction isn't such a great idea for those who would like to have a nice career, live in a nice home in a nice place, enjoy their lives and make enough money to retire well before dying?

Just another of the hidden costs of that 'enviable expat lifestyle'.
Add to that the endless trips to the GP for antibiotics and asthma inhalers for the kids.

We left HKG last year after 10 years as we couldn't justify the impact that it was having on our kid's health and education (and I was sick of the same dream nonsense). Our kids were in ESF schools, and frankly, the standard of education was very average indeed.

Certainly many colleagues sent the wife and kids 'home' - an unthinkable option for us.

" nice home in a nice place ", you're obviously not talking about HK

Obviously. And certainly not on C scale/10K/24K housing.

Well at least CX pays 75%. Pity the other local airline pilots who get ZERO.

:{

I don't pity anyone who signed a contract, just to be sure have they removed housing from the contract you signed with the other airline in HKG? If they have that is terrible and you should fight to get it back or leave. If it was never there in the first place :confused:

Turnandburn
 

Hopefully you got your kids a better education than yours. Try "their":{:{:{

Learn to read, we did the research, we applied when we had too, our kids have not failed there interviews, they have not been offered interviews. Going by your argument because an apartment was brought during SARS for 2mil a new joiner today could buy the same one for 2mil.... Times change and regarding schooling if you read any newspaper you will read that only in the last 12-18 months the schools have become extremely overfilled, so of course hundreds of pilots before us have not had an issue but from the PMs I have received it definitely is now.

Last time I checked ESF nor other schools accepted bribes so unless you think paying a 400000 debenture at discovery college is what we should all be doing to get our kids into school then you are as self-conceited as you come across.

Regarding selection at ESF they use a lottery system to select candidates for interviews we hand delivered our applications on the first day they were open.

So if you don't like the current RP's, or housing do you just pack up and go home or do you raise the subject so that it can be addressed, my post is aimed at getting further evidence of others in the same situation so we can maybe convince the AOA and the company this is an issue.

Thanks for the PMs please keep them coming.

Hypothetically.....

If you did convince the company that it is an issue, what is the solution?

i.e.
What is the next step, and the step after that?
What do you want the company to do with regards to the HK Schooling system?

(not having a go if you're trying to read tone into this post, am I very interested in this subject)

Good question,

There are a number of issues, the ESF was always the affordable choice ie you were always certain of getting into the likes of Kowloon junior (this school being in our zone, to date we are 430 on the list, their are 90 siblings this year to be placed at KJS for 160 slots) , it is 90% covered with no capital fees or debenture. Now this choice is closed unless lucky enough to be selected for an interview one has to look at either paying a 400000 debenture for the likes of discovery college(non refundable) or go to a school with high fees and a capital levy on top of the fees.(Cx don't include capital levies in there fees.)

Possible solution options
Provide 90% for any school as the choice of Esf has been taken away
Include capital levies in the 90%
If the school offers a refundable debenture then provide an interest only loan.
If the school offers a non refundable debenture, then offer an interest free loan for full amount not just the current 30k,

This would allow people to look at other options out of ESF system.

flyingkiwi
 

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

THEIR!!!!!

//////////.

Flyingkiwi
 

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

This one should be "there".

Ironic that the thread on schooling shows that nobody knows the difference between "there" and "their".

I think the point is that pilots want to send there kids to better schools than wot we went to.

If you want to reproduce, how about you take care of your kids' education yourself, just like everyone else has to? I don't see why it is the company's or the AOA's responsibility to ensure your descendents receive the expensive and private education of your liking.

The company has a policy with good and bad points, just like all their policies, that may or may not suit your personal choices and circumstances. Deal with matters as per the policy or find another company with a policy that suits you. If you think a policy change is in order and a properly documented campaign for change has any hope of success, I suggest that Pprune is not the proper avenue.

Also, the more you reproduce, and the more you expect increasing sums of money from the company to fund your personal lifestyle decisions, the less profit the company will make. That means less money and profit for everyone else, particularly those who choose not to reproduce or do not have school-age kids in Hong Kong (approximately 50-75% of pilots?) so I am not convinced you would find much support to take more money from their pockets to put into yours.

I'd wouldn't class the ESF system as a Private School education.

A shortage to school positions is going to present a real issue to CX families in the future. We are only just seeing the beginning.

Iron skillet. I'm sorry to say so...your point is the most simplistic and dimmest point I have read on prune for a long time. I bet in your superficial life everything boil down to money! I really feel sorry for you and for your sad single life.

Strangely enough, when Airbus had problems with mobility of its own English speaking staff to Toulouse, they funded and built their own international school. So company intervention is not entirely without precedent. :cool:

Wow, who is this Iron Skillet guy? "Reproduce" man brother, get a life. They aren't reproductive cells, they are our kids. Every child we have is a gift from God. Deal with it.

"Bye Honey! I'm off to take our reproductions to School."

Butthead.

Well said ash,

Iron skillet is clearly a man who cannot reproduce.

IS, you really are a tool.

Well said Ash? Name calling and incorrect knowledge of science is rewarded with compliments?

1. All plants and animals reproduce. It's not rocket science, or a gift from whichever of the 2000+ gods man has created: It's just evolution. (Before anyone starts this again, any opposing personal opinion about evolution is as invalid and irrelevant as your opinion about gravity, atomic structure and heliocentrism, etc.)
2. Assumptions and opinions about my single vs. married status, reproductive history and reproductive capability are also irrelevant.
3. Were all child-free people living "superficial" lives until they reproduced, or after they discovered they were unable to reproduce? Your own life before kids, or if your kids died, or if you can't have any, had/has no value to you or others around you?
4. Is it only through reproduction that someone's life is elevated in value from such "superficial" lack of meaning as those who have not reproduced?
5. Yes, money can buy happiness: It buys shelter, nutrition, health care, entertainment and security. And yes, more money can buy more happiness, if the things you need and/or want for happiness cost money, and they all do. Note that I said "can buy happiness" which does not equal "will buy happiness." Conversely, a lack of money cannot buy happiness. I believe this thread contains several dollar amounts and the parents' concern over the cost of schooling.
6. Yes, my point was very simple: If you want to raise new humans, that is each person's choice and their responsibility. As a society, we have agreed to all share the financial burden of your choice to a large extent already. The company does provide some assistance at great cost that many do not benefit from in other ways, and in fact accept a financial burden in taxation and reduced profits. Choosing to leave your country (for money, incidentally...) and its social support network is also each individual's choice. Some relief is made available by the company, some is not. I say: Deal with it.
7. If the company has problems getting and retaining employees because of this issue, they will do something about it, as they do with housing in HKG (whichever deal, if it's enough for their plans, not yours).
8. Yes, like most with common sense, I am aware that reproductive cells are not kids, and that kids are not reproductive cells (other than before/at conception), but pairing up males and females to create new humans is certainly called reproduction (online dictionaries are available). Despite your apparent confusion and lack of scientific comprehension, even reproduced humans aren't any more of a gift from god (whichever you like to imagine) than the horse's or sparrow's or worm's or lobster's offspring (bacteria too!), no matter how much you love and want and enjoy your kids.
9. Are all the young soldiers coming home without genitals, and other victims of violence, disease or medical issues, also going to be called "Tools" and "Buttheads" and "superficial" by you guys, since they "obviously can't reproduce?"

Sounds to me like a whole bunch of people shouldn't be too proud of reproducing their genetic traits and are probably raising an entitled and mean generation of science deniers.

So, back to the school system and education allowance thing now?

Well, man brother, if that's true then Iron Skillet is by your definition also a "gift from god". So you should treat him with a bit more respect or god may get angry and send various plagues after you and your reproductions.