2012-13 Leave allocation
 

I have 2 weeks outstanding. The pool has 1 slot open for the whole year! We are obviously not short of crews!

same same. 2 weeks awarded but due to carry over from last time still have 6 weeks left over!

same here. got 2 bids awarded, totaling 3 weeks (1 wk + 2 wks). Nothing in the pool.

Same story here. Only two weeks provisionally awarded. Nothing in the pool for July or August. Guess I won't be getting a summer holiday with my children this year.

What a farce.

SuperJoker all the way!

Not one week awarded, all 6 weeks to the pool:yuk:

I'm in the same boat, put 6 or 7 requests into the system, and got NOTHING! No doubt the company will try and allocate it one week at a time!!

CNUTS :ugh:

.......in between long hauls no doubt.

I'm sorry for your loss, pasa and bugga.


Spend some time learning how to use the system and you will have better luck next year.


P.S. It's not hard.


P.P.S. On the other hand, don't. It makes easier for me to get what I want. Sheesh, it's like getting the young ones to read their COS.

Jed_thrust , I know how the system works , I just won't accept leave in Nov anymore! I've have kids and I'm tired of going on leave alone ! This year I will change it up, I have a plan and it doesn't involve me wasting my leave on ****ty slots!

JED
 

I think you will find that crew know how to bid, but no system will work if there are not enough slots made available. It seems that very few HKG based Boeing 747 or 777 pilots have been awarded more than 2-3 weeks leave.

The pool will not fix this as people will not throw in the pool if only half their leave has been awarded and risk being given single weeks allocated leave with little or no notice. When I last checked the pool there was 1 slot for the year

It is absolutely appalling that the leave allocation was changed a year or so ago to align (read delay) our leave year with the "operating Plan" to give the company better planning... and here were are about to go into the new year and I for one do not have a days leave awarded in 2012.

Got a feeling the S*it is about to hit the fan in FLT OPS if they cannot even get the simple basics covered.

HK Employment Ordinance
 

Maybe one of our armchair legal eagles can answer this. I remember hearing somewhere that it is a requirement of the HK Employment ordinance that you must have leave at least once in any rolling 12 month period.

So, if true, the company system of allocating all your leave in the 1st half of 2011, and then not giving you any more until the 2nd half of 2012 may be in breach of the ordinance.

Anyone know definite details???

Pasa and Cyril,

Ok, I get it: you both know how the system works and you know how to bid.

So tell me this then: why would you bother going to all the trouble of sitting down in front of a computer and submitting a priority 1 leave request that has no chance of getting filled?


What's the point of that?


There will always be insufficient slots, or you may have insufficient points (or, with a different allocation system, insufficient seniority) for everyone to take leave at Christmas or in August. What do you want the company to do: hire another 1000 FOs so we can all have leave at the same time?


The point is that Cathay is (and will probably always be) running undermanned, so you have to wait your turn to take the highly prized leave weeks. In a previous airline one waited for the seniority, in this one you wait for your points.


It's all the same really.


No one who knows the system puts in a leave request that they know will be refused...

"The point is that Cathay is (and will probably always be) running undermanned, so you have to wait your turn to take the highly prized leave weeks. In a previous airline one waited for the seniority, in this one you wait for your points."

Not if you have kids .... then it is a reverse seniority system!!

Who says those with kids should get higher priority or better odds or more chances for leave at some particular time of the year than those without?

In most cases, those same weeks are just as highly prized by people without kids, people without boats, people planning vacations with friends or families, people who like Star Wars, people who wear glasses, people who don't like surfing, people from Italy, people with short hair, people over 5'10", people who prefer red M&M's as well as people who benefit from and suffer the pitfalls of both seniority-based and points-based leave systems.

There are 2600+ personal sets of circumstances that determine who wants what and when, and there is no perfect system, including seniority. A decent chance of everyone getting a fair shot at the best leave slots on a rotating basis is the intent of the point system. A slant toward seniority is already included with the ability to build up points over time before cashing them in if and when you wish.

As has been said before, there are simply not enough leave slots to match the number of weeks owed to everyone, and that needs to be protested loudly and made a top priority to fix right now.

"Who says those with kids should get higher priority or better odds or more chances for leave at some particular time of the year than those without?"

I don't know ..... who did say that?

Fine, you didn't say that.

But you only brought up one variable (kids) to express your apparent dissatisfaction ("reverse seniority") of the leave system for those with kids...unless I really misunderstood you and in fact you prefer and wish for full reverse seniority for certain people's circumstances?

No not at all. What I really believe in is not changing established systems at a whim. This almost invariably leads to some being disadvantaged to an even greater extent. No system is perfect, but continuously 'adapting systems' are the least perfect of all. My comment about 'reverse seniority' was just a personal laugh at my own position ... which admittedly has come about as a result of having kids. Through my own choices my points have become ever more negative with time, but I'm cool with that. I knew the system and I played it my way, for better or worse.:(

I think we're missing the point. It doesn't matter what method you use to award leave, if you don't have enough pilots to meet your task, then you can't free up the slots. Thats why so many of us haven't been awarded more than a third of our entitlement. My children have already asked me how come their school friends have started finalizing their summer holiday plans, yet I can't even get one week secured in either July or August.

I've grown tired of watching my contemporaries in other walks of life not give the subject of annual leave a second thought. All my family and friends were penciling in their 2012 holiday dates/plans back in September. I don't think it's asking much, to expect a family holiday during the summer months. And it will continue to get worse as there's no incentive to fix it any of this. Sorry to sound so negative but that's the reality.

Complain bitch etc but don't change the system!!
 

The system works well!!! The only problem is CX
1) Don't allocate enough slots throughout the year. (but this has nothing to do with the system)
2) They work stack and as a result we should now get 3hrs credit per day!

Points - Are the best way! It allows more junior crew to build up points within 5yrs to enable to compete with others esp when they young and have kids.

It allows "smart" senior guys (whom have built points) to have a high chance of getting leave when they want.

I flew with a very senior Cpt whom was bitching about the system that needs to be changed into a "seniority based", as he has been here 20+ yrs and cannot get school holidays to enjoy being with his "2nd" family!

I then discussed points system - He did not even after 20yrs fully understand how it all works and as a result has not built sufficient points.

I almost lost it but kept it to myself. Since many older guys just don't plan correctly and end up playing the Seniority game to fix the wrongs of there past!

(Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of young guys without a clue as well)

The main point is if you don't understand the system - Don't complaint!
Educate yourselves! Then stick together "somehow, god help us" and try change the important things. Like Credit hrs, work stacking, and crew shortage! and the millions of other outstanding things..

And if you fatigued, stressed and your family does not know you and your wife threatens divorce etc. Go see the CX Doc and get a months off and create your own leave slot!

Missing the Point
 

The Leave system is seriously flawed and has been since its inception.

A projection forward from day one through the term of a normal career reveals that an officer joining CX and following the expected path would, with a family, end up with a significant points deficit and hence, no 'choice' leave, ever!

Since the majority of us are still in the halcyon days of our youth, viewing the future in much the same way as crew control ie. about 12 hours in advance, we have yet to identify this as a significant problem.

But hey! that's the system....

What about the real issue...

CX is, probably, breaching it's obligations under the AOC requirements document which requires them to ensure sufficient crews are available for their planned operations.

The Company has a contractual (not beneficial) obligation to provide each officer with their annual leave entitlement and, looking at the pool and reading the comments posted above it is clear that this responsibility is being ignored; possibly to the extent that the Company is in breach of contract.

At the very least, is it not time to ensure that when the annual leave bid opens, the total commitment for the coming years' leave is available for bidding? 'Pool' activity would then be confined to its original intent, that of availing swaps between officers with undesirable allocations. Not as used now, to sort out GMA's incompetence.

Presently rostering and leave are a shambles and it's my expectation that 2012 will be a watershed. PRA's will abound. Fatigue and stress levels will peak and the resulting sickness levels will lead to massive roster disruptions, further exacerbating an already intolerable situation.

Happy New Year!

SR

So now the fun really starts! Was originally only allocated 3 weeks of leave....just informed that one week has now been removed. Gee thanks! :*

See Crewsunites advise and see a DR. Go get your month off free.

Joker Leave
 

What really hacks me off about the leave system is this Joker Leave. Why should STC get priority requesting leave? Go ahead and pay them more to do their jobs, but I object to taking away leave from everyone else so they can get what they want. No wonder there are no good slots left when the plebes finally get a chance to bid.

I don't begrudge them doing the STC job, just really disagree with them getting all the good leave as compensation.

I agree that the system of STC's getting priority is wrong. Basically, the company is using our leave system to help compensate for a crappy roster for these guys. Using the leave system rather than the cheque book. Not the fault of the STC's.

I have little sympathy for STC's and trainers. They have put their hands up for the position, and what's more, they will be training and checking the iKids, who are undercutting existing conditions of service...and so the eternal cycle continues.

If they don't like their 'crappy rosters', they can always go back to the line.

Some (maybe not enough) of the training department were the staunchest of supporters for the AOA and CPU during the hard times. Divide and rule - reject the "trainers", is to play right into the management theme. Not too sure how we would proceed without any training department. Don't forget, we were keen to fill the boots of all the 49ers whilst asking outsiders to respect a recruitment ban. Banned the "scabs" , who accepted employment after the ban, from joining the AOA. We have only our collective stupity to blame.

My point is that we need to get to company to stop compensating the STC's with our leave.

That's a great idea, and you're right.

But until "we" come up with a long list of what "they" should do that will make us happy, and "we" get together and agree to do something together to gain improvements from "them", "they" won't do anything for "us" just because we want it.

Well, the next pool period is open for bidding. For my category there are ZERO weeks available yet I have not received my contractually obligated leave.

Anyone else in the same boat?

Yes...........

Yes. For info HK based F/O

Likewise. I got none of my requests, and the pool shows no slots available for the rest of the year! And now those clowns start giving me one week chunks in their usual fashion, past pool closure time, so I can' t give it back.
I'm sure they will also end my tour on a Sunday, to have me back working on Monday, effectively using my leave as G-days. They did it before.
Guys, this is calling for serious self-defense, if you know what I mean. They are abusing the system!

A couple of tweaks
 

When I was a lowly SO in HKG I requested leave to earn maximum points (no kids so leave dates not important. Back then there were also plenty of slots available. I don't want to loose those points to a seniority based system which would rewards those who have pissed their points away in the past.

It is CRAP that STCs get first shot at the leave slots. The company screws the rank and file to keep these company men happy.

It is CRAP that leave slots are allocated by base area. For those of us with kids school holidays become important. With a range of base areas and therefore a range of school dates, if slots were allocated by rank and fleet (not base area), more of us would get the leave we want. At the end of a ULH flight a crew member either goes home or to a company paid hotel. Merging the leave areas would not cost the company any more.

If you are allocated leave in a period which would earn you points, one should get those points. Therefore if the company is forcing you to take leave in a undesirable period at least you earn points so in due course your leave requests should be successful.

It doesn't matter what system you use (points or seniority), the problem is there aren't enough slots. Take a look at the availability. There's nothing this summer in my rank and I believe its the same story across the board.

The company has not released the slots because it can't spare the pilots. Over tasking with no end in sight. Simple as that. You could have a thousand points and it wouldn't change a thing. No slots = no chance.

Dan,

I remember him too well. I was one of the suckers who fell for his drivel and now find myself fighting for school holiday scraps. By the time I manage to get my points back to a reasonable level they probably will have changed the system! :ugh:

CXline guy:and then:

You were fortunate enough to join the company when you didn't have kids and had the opportunity to build up points BEFORE you had children. A sensible move. However, that doesn't mean that those of us who joined the company having already had children 'pissed away our points'. School holidays are just as important to us as they are to you.

However, your point about being allocated crap leave and not receiving the appropriate points is an entirely fair one. My previous companies have always awarded points when allocating leave this way.

I don't expect to get every single week that I ask for - that's part of the job - but it is not unreasonable to at least have a couple of weeks off in the summer with my kids. I don't care when in the summer, just give me a 2 week block somewhere in the 6 weeks.

And while we're on the subject, what is the point of 'provisional' leave? Nothing can be booked and the company can change it at the drop of a hat. :=

So Dendee those leave slots you wanted released from planning finally arrived but too late for the first leave pool. I know why not make out there was a computer glitch and reopen the pool so you can get rid of them eh!!

Catastrophe Theory
 

Word is that only 70% of annual leave entitlement has been released to the system for bidding.

'Planning' (sic) and management meanwhile want see how far they can stretch the rubber band by plundering all those wasteful G and O days on the roster.

The good news is that you probably wont have to wait long for the catastrophic rebound when the band snaps!

Just don't stand in the way in case you get caught in the backlash.