Is Cathay Tearing Up Contracts?
 

I am keen to apply for the Cathay Cadet Pilot programme but heard through a friend who knows someone who is on the programme that Cathay is just tearing up the contracts of their instuctors in Adelaide. Having just read the posts about the 49ers as well, does this mean that there is no job security with Cathay if they can just do this sort of thing? Does anyone know anything about this?

job security is 90 days at best and 1 at worst
no pension
this is hong kong a tax haven minimal employment law.
If you think you can compare HK with a european carrier or north america you are mistaken.
You are an expat in a foreign country and nobody gives a **** whether you live or die so get you head around that and take the money if you want or not as its slowly but surely getting less.
Don't come here if you have any sort of morality or are some sort of do gooder.
You work here carrying **** from A to B whether that **** walks on or travels on a pallet I don't really mind.
We seem to carry anything and everything from slave labour to lithium batteries in the hundreds of tons to munitions of war.

If its a big shiny jet like in the adds don't be mistaken half the time there covered in pollution crud.

But i am here and intend to stay because i still get a buzz when ya set thrust as the engines wind up and speed down that concrete pad.

I think there is only one job on this planet with job security and thats an undertaker, as the baby boomers head north to 80 buisness is gone be good.

Yes, in fact anyone who's been here more than 12 months knows all about it.

If you want to know the stories, here are some applicable key words & phrases which you can mention to any CX pilot as a conversation starter. My list is not exhaustive, so please feel free to add anything that I've missed.

- COSAP '94
- B scale
- ASL
- Sign or be fired (A scalers in '99)
- Absence Management Programme
- 49ers
- Alleged Perjury
- RP 94 unilateral amendments
- RP 01
- Cos 99
- Cos 08
- B scale extensions of A scalers
- Extensions without paying bypass pay
- Avoiding bypass pay to 2nd Officers by delaying upgrade assessments
- 2nd Officer bypass pay court case
- AFTLS para 16.3 abuse
- Changes to rostered flights to avoid overtime payment (in breach of the legally agree rostering practices)
- Excessive use of "would normally" and "only in exceptional circumstances" throughout all documentation
- 13th Month
- Profit Share
- Air Hong Kong
- Air China Cargo J.V.
- DEFOs
- iCadets
- unilateral change of contract for instructors on the seniority list at the college in ADL to local terms
- Cargo Fines
- Onshoring of bases
- Double taxation

I sounds to me that you've picked an appropriate handle, in that you're a smart enough cat to do some research & ask the difficult questions.

It does look appalling when you list it like that. Thank you for the effort.

Now I know why it feels so surreal to work for a company in a country where there are scant labour laws and less morality.

You forgot to add:

- Direct Entry captains

Apparently the FOP HR department has been able to sucker 100 new recruits in to thinking they can take a base after 3 to 4 years. I wonder if those new joiners realize there has not been a base bid in over 6 months, and not a significant base bid in over 3 years! The way it appears now, is that it may take at least 8 years just to take a base as an FO - and then, you might be double taxed with little concern from CX.


Question: is this exploitation or indentured servitude?

...and sign or be fired CoS99 Officers during the on-shoring in Oz.

management is making it hard and complicated. Bases will continue to be offered to those legally able to be based in a basing area. If you are on a base and not legally allowed to be employed in that country, then yes, a basing for you is over until you can hold a slot in your home country. The issue is that the HR in FOP is telling those that are joining on terms not sustainable in Hong Kong that they will be able to go back to life in their home country in a few years; when those on the 6th floor of the FTC know that is not an option. Why would the company want anybody only getting 10k a month in housing to ever leave Hong Kong???

The company is just now figuring out taxation issues..... once this is complete, bases are going to be offered again - especially in places where taxation is not, and will not be an issue (USA). If you join today, you need to understand that there is pent up demand for bases, and that you will not be going back to your home country for a very long time. If they say you can have a base in 3-4 years, ask if you can get that in writing; and without the term "normally" or "could" or "may be offered".

Well, they are also telling these guys in the interview that they will only be SOs for 2 years. Sad thing is, these guys are believing it all....:ugh:

Does anyone know the net gain in aircraft next year , and how many crew are needed for those aircraft ?

Goathead,

Nobody, not even the CEO, knows the answer to that question. Unless the skies fall in economically, CX will very likely take delivery of all aircraft ordered. Whether those will represent growth or replacement will be mostly determined by the economy next year. There are plenty of old and leased aircraft they can park or return if needed. That said, I believe they would like to grow as much as practicable. This might possibly be restricted by something like insufficient crews unless FOP gets its head out of the sand.

Also, I understand CX will make a decision between A380 and 747-8I sometime next year. Not that it matters much.

Contract isn't worth sh*t
 

Whatever you sign today, you won't be on the same contract in 2, 5 or 10 years time. You will be working harder for less $.

If you have some hours get a job where you are treated with an ounce of respect.

If you have no time, come to CX, get the Aussi license, check out in the sim for what ever wide body they put you on and leave. Don't worry about the bond (sorry, forgivable loan), just put it in the bank at the start and pay it back to them when you leave (keep the interest).

If you think you will stay at CX remember:

- It will be years before you might get a base
- The contract on offer now is crap. If you have a wife and kid life will be hell on what is being paid
- HKG is polluted! Not much fun worrying about the health of your kids
- Your conditions are only going to get worse
- The locals don't want you here
- The company management are Swire short term placements. They come, shaft the employees, get a bonus and move on

Not likely. They are waiting for the 777-8/-9 as a long term replacement to the 744.

As far as growth, hardly any. Consider that the B744 are NOT getting the new business / first class seats, that tells you they will pretty much be done with long haul next year, 2013 at the latest. They will slowly be BCFed or sold to other operators. The 773ER already does most of NAM long haul, Europe is the next replacement, especially now that Y1 airway was moved a little further north.

BCF freighters are leaving the fleet, especially since the -8s are starting to land in honkers as we speak. And the 3 A340 have already been sold / un-leased. The rest are gonna also slowly fade away, the 773ER can do what they did but cheaper and better.

So most aircraft are for replacement. Keep in mind that the A350s don't arrive until late in the decade, so they will start replacing the A330s if they last that long (by then some will be 30 years old, YIKES!!!).

Current SOs are 4+ years. Cathay working on new rating for SOs which will allow them to operate and therefore make the rating last longer than 5 years. That should be a hint to you on how long you will be SO, no secret there.

Again, all this is already public record and you should know this already before coming here. :ok:

Cadets no longer get Aussie licenses, only a HK CPL and frozen ATPL.

A P2X rating on any CX wide body is useless and can't be taken anywhere.

They can't leave, and when they can it'll be 8-10yrs down the track still with no command time other than the 50hrs they left Adelaide with, plus the P2X hours are useless and aren't recognized by anyone again but the HKCAD.

So they stay and finally seniority applies its iron handcuffs.

And our COS continues to erode to the lowest common denominator.

A wise cadet would sit the oz exams at the same time and do a CPL/CIR while they were at it even if a few dollars and a bit of extra study was required.

Not sure if most Authorities would know what a P2X was and they could possibly be coerced into putting a P2 on a foreign license.

WOW! I hope you're reading this RH and JS. This is where you and your colleagues have led this once-wonderful Airline.
I don't see anything on this thread so far that is exaggerated or untrue. If you're coming to CX - this is it now.
Caveat Emptor.

My A380/-8I comment was a regurgitation of a fleet forum comment by MH.

Cathay are tearing up contracts? Sounds GREAT!

Where do I sign?

Dan, I believe that (in the past anyway) a couple of regulatory bodies have given guys a P2 or "co-pilot" rating on a type based on a HK P2X.

Can not comment on current practice.

Australia used to accept the P2X, however it said.....

P2

Restrictions: Not to be in a control seat for takeoff or landing. :ok:

Then around the time the screaming scull got in control it was axed, and rightly so. :D

If you read "The 49ers" you will realize Hong Kong is run by big business , and Swire is one of the biggest. They don't even have to tear up contract's, they can just ignore then with no consequence.

FAc6, sandwiches gone because the Canadian AOA demanded they be removed and substituted with a third meal for their members. So the remaining 90% of crew get what the 10% decide.

Just the beginning.

BTW We had neither sandwiches or 3rd meal loaded.

Yesterday's flight had sandwiches...hardly anyone eats them, especially out of hong kong.

...because the sandwiches out of HKG are gross.

so, because of gross.... nobody considers bringing this up to a manager, to have them replaced by delicious sandwiches? Now, you want to scrap them? What happens if there is a delay, and everybody gets hungry? Do you think anyone will go into discretion without sandwiches to tide them over? In every port besides Hong Kong, the sandwiches are good.... and useful, and they are all eaten normally.

Back to tearing up contracts.... if they do, I have a few spare ones printed out to show them what I signed.

Tearing up contracts
 

The mass exodus will begin shortly after the great sandwich revolution of 2011 fails.

Who needs three meals on an 11 hour flight! Jeez! I hardly eat one! I do love those yummy HKG sandwiches. Mmmmh! What the hell are they? I think they're stuffed with catfood.

Occupy The Street
 

You heard it here first!

Just to add my 2p the sandwiches from Anchorage recently have been pretty bad.

The Cav

The solution to such widespread idiocy, incomprehension of responsibility/duty, and lack of teamwork is simple: Just like in a freighter, before pushback, go right into the galley yourself and stick your meal in the oven for 25 mins, and go get your own meal at TOC along with whatever else you want, whether the SP (or ISM) likes it or not. When they threaten to "report" your behaviour, invite them to send it right to the head of corporate safety, where it will be right along side your report about the cabin crew causing pilot discomfort, distraction and frustration that interfered with the normal operation of the a/c.

You can also take a moment to remind them who is in charge of them, the pax and the a/c, too. If we stopped accepting such disrespect and arrogance from the unskilled labourers (duh: seat belt enforcers/food and drink servers/potential door openers) things like this would stop happening. :ugh:

Fac6,

So, you're either the FO or the Captain. Whose lack of bal*s resulted in an unsuccessful outcome?

No wonder the AOA (we) is impotent. No one is willing to stand up for what is right.

Sickeningly sad...

When you fly with me it's like eating a SH$T sandwich! :eek:

On the contrary, it would appear the Canadian AOA does have the ability to work for its members so hats off to them. Yes, before you all bleat, they do have Canadian employment law on their side.

I had a Wanchai Sandwich recently, there was a contractual arrangement and no breach of turns and positions. I was not forced to put my own bun in the oven, but I did stir my own fluids on numerous occasions. Sandwiches are important.

THE GREAT SANDWICH DEBACLE - its as good as the "staff bus," I mean, "crew bus," carfuffle at Terminal Two. Queuing with the Office plebs after 12 hrs in an Aluminium tube, or trying to get to sign on at the same time, with NO priority for crew. The dogs tail gets bigger everyday and wags the dog more so.

Just another tangent.

Absolutely spot on IS, couldn't have put it better myself.:ok::ok::ok::ok::ok:

What exactly did the Canadian AOA do/accomplish regarding sandwiches/meals?

Canadians ended all contracts and agreements with " eh!" .

"O Canada, we stand on cars and freeze..."

Iron S, my point was they do all they can for their members, even at the expense of other factions of the AOA. If you were in the AOA you'd also be aware of the recent ruling by the canadian labour court against CX regarding the use of its D & G procedure. Ask a GC member about it.