Whatever.....

I have seen what piss poor planning can lead to though.

On a trip to SFO, I was the FO, the relief was called from reserve, the capt was training the SO.

Half way across the pacific, I got the SFO weather. Then a couple of hours later I got more. The relief was curious why I was so interested in SFO, he thought we were going to LAX!

This could all have been mitigated against by a professional briefing from the Capt, who was PF, it being a -400!

Many here argue that the company is in a race to the bottom, there is no reason why we should follow them.

Max,

Let me see if I have this right. I need to brief the destination and call sign (among other things) in case I come across an unprofessional pilot who cannot bother to retrieve this info from the paperwork on his own. Now that is covering for the lowest common denominator.

I think briefings are meant to cover anything dumb, different, or potentially dangerous. Flying 872 to SFO with standard ERAs, alternates, wx, and notams does not qualify. I'm sure the RQ had plenty of opportunity to figure everything out by the time he was responsible for any decision making. If he chose not to, that is another (far worse) problem altogether.

First of all...

DessertRat - did you mean for your name to sound like a trash bin vermin at a cake factory?

For the rest, it's not about making a meal out of the briefing, as with everything in aviation, there is a need to be professional. Surely we all want to set the right impression. As I said in an earlier post, it takes 15 seconds longer than the usual. I'll draw your attention to Ops Pt A 8.1.11, that says it all really.

If you are an SO/FO, it matters... if you are a captain and don't agree, you are beyond redemption.

I'm running for cover now.

Remember, the first rule of military aviation applies here just as appropriately...

'It's better to look good than be good!'

Anyway, what about DEFOs? I hope not.

Max, its otherwise known as bull**** baffles brains!
I agree, DEFOs are dead until they are in a corner with no alternative and it becomes expedient.

Max,

If the Relief thought he was going to LAX when he was really going to SFO and he was NOT PF, how would his actions (if he actually had to take any) have been different? If he had been retrieving LAX weather (like some idiots do just after takeoff from HKG, and, all the way across the pond, every hour, like it were going to make a difference in the flight) and it was terrible (possibly requiring a diversion) he'd have been thinking about going to SFO anyway!

I know relief guys who don't even LOOK at the paperwork and would be perfectly capable of doing their job properly and safely if and when the sh*t hit the fan.

It's not a f****n' lunar mission!

Fond memories back in 2000 of ND telling me how incredible the exRAF ASL chaps were and how they could all be DEC.

This is without doubt the best thread creep I have ever seen on PPRUNE.

It's all Ryanair's fault.

Never heard that before.
Actor.............

Doesn't that sort of back up Max's point though? For example, what are the standard notams for SFO?

STP

Stillalbatross,

You appear to have an issue with ex military guys. I flew with most of the ASL captains back then and I can only remember two real idiots. One from an all civilian background and the other fom the RAF. All the other ex RAF guys were just fine. And still great guys to fly with today. But then again, they had done the job before in the left seat. It's not rocket science after all.


Just out of interest, which Air Force turned you down all those years ago?

Thread creep continues...

Lowe, never bothered with the military, marching's not for me. No doubt you also feel the need to run around telling everyone how wonderful you are? Seems there are plenty of exGA guys doing a fine job in CX, why **** on them?

I think you need to re read your post and then mine.

Never questioned the GA guys at all. Both career paths have provided CX with perfectly adequate pilots over the years. Simply tried to question your obvious issue with ex RAF pilots from your post on 5th June. Seen this envy/issue many times over the years. Just relax.

Suspect I touched a nerve though.

PS: Never said I was ex military.

Stillalbatross,
If you had considered the military you would have learnt that pilots in Nato Air Forces are all officers and yes there would have been a little bit if drill (marching to you) during Officer Training but not much. The end goal of flying some of the worlds best and most demanding equipment in the most demanding environment would have compensated for any of the pain one endured at the beginning. You will never experience the pride of marching in front of the monarch at your graduation, or the satisfaction of getting a bomb on target from low level at night in cloud or the feeling of the burners light up. Then again, most of us enjoyed the discipline and esprit de corps that came with it.

Don't argue that dropping bombs has nothing to do with flying passengers around... it's the attitude and discipline that comes with being a professional aviator, no matter what your flying background.

Ah, DISCIPLINE, there is a quality found in very few of our new pilots. You will argue, I know, but trust me you sound just like the type I am talking about!

cxorcist, oval 3 holer et al.... You talk about lowest common denomiators, you talk yourselves into it.

This is not rocket science and neither is it a bombing mission but surely the customers deserve we make no less effort than that type of job. There is only one way to fly and that is at 100% all the time.

If you don't like it.....

Max Reheat

Spot on. Couldn't have put it better myself. Thank you.

Now of course, this will start an even more heated debate which will result in Cathay pilots doing what they do best.....turn on each other. Willy waving galore.

Meanwhile our careers erode further while we're busy bickering like children.

As they say, "never mind the ball, lets get on with the game".

I'm off to practice my goose steps. Oops, I mean quick march. ;)

:yuk:
It's people who experience pride marching in front of a monarch that make CX the 19th-Century colonial anachronism it is. How about moving your thought and behaviour patterns into the 21st Century?
:yuk:

................We just crushed!!!!!!!!!!
The CX pilot group were focused on a light bulb, lost sight of the real issue and hit the ground.No one survived.
Oh man of great wisdom and ego but little common sense, professing to wise they became fools.......
Please learn and apply CRM. We all need it.

Max,

How quickly you go from talking about the importance of briefing items which are self evident in the paperwork to calling those who disagree about briefing them unprofessional or becoming the lowest common denominator. I am one of the few pilots of those I have flown with who looks at real time weather and the paper notams on possible divert airfields as we approach them. That is because I probably did not even look at them in the paperwork unless they are an ERA for filing purposes, and I sure as hell did not memorize or brief them if I did look. That is what a quick glance at the weather chart is for. They are not go or no-go items.

I think your statement about looking good being more important being good says it all about you. The problem with that is that eventually everyone who really knows you figures out that you are completely full of crap. It takes a seniority list bigger than Cathay's (or the RAF) to hide from that.

For icing on the cake, you mention pride derived from marching in front of a monarch. No real fighter pilot likes marching anywhere except onto the flightline to fly a sortie and promptly into the bar after the debrief (which ironically should be detailed). So my guess is that you are a poser ex-ground attack pilot with no real air to air experience. Let me guess - GR4 or, god forbid, the Jaguar? You are correct in saying that dropping a blivet on target is not rocket science, but flying a 64 ship OCA wall downtown on the first day of the war is (and so is training for that mission).

So save your cheap quips about discipline, professionalism, and 100% for those whom are like minded. When it comes to exerting effort I am much more concerned about proper vector placement than producing more thrust, but I suspect someone calling themselves Max Reheat is more interested in the latter. Don't worry though, I am sure everyone who really knows you understands that you are just blowing hot air.

Cxorcist

Oh cxorcist,

I got a bite.

You sound like an air defender which means you didn't ever lead a 64 ship OCA mission, I can tell you who did!

By the way, the Jag was great!

Also, were you a DEFO? I would guess so.

Top of the class has to fly something :ok:

Max Reheat, just for you:)


When Judgment Is Clouded
MILITARY | SCOTLAND, UK |
(We give weather forecast information for Royal Air Force aircrew officers for fast jet flying.)

Caller: “Hi this is flying officer [name] with [squadron]. I need the weather for 5 hours time on the west coast.”

Me: “So that’s the forecast pressure, wind and cloud cover?”

Caller: “No, I don’t want the forecast conditions. I want the actual weather for 5 hours ahead.”

Me: “I can only do actuals for what’s happened, but I can give my best forecast.”

Caller: “No, that’s not good enough. I don’t want forecasts. I want to know what’s going to actually happen!”

(Someone else takes the call.)

Caller 2: “Hi this is [squadron] navigator. Sorry about that. Can I get the forecast conditions for him, please?”

BusyB,

I don't see the relevance of that post at all.

MaxReheat and CXorcist....well done to both of you!

I enjoyed your one-v-one!

Max Reheat,

Sorry if its not relevant, I just thought it was representative of a thorough military briefing and it was amusing:)

So in other words CX is also not the way forward? I really begin to think I chose the wrong profession because according to all the threats here on PPRUNE, all the carriers are bullocks. I'm 3000 hours TT, 2500 airbus, please tell me, what is the way forward? With this loco ping-pong business I'm in now, I go crazy..

Triple_2, although long-haul may seem calm and even glamourous compared with your ping-pong job, I really miss the true flying and decision-making involved in ping-ponging. I know of a captain at EasyJet Switzerland who makes more in basic salary than a 747 captain at Cathay. Plus, he's got a fun cabin crew and actually uses his head and his skills rather than becoming a brain-dead ocean-crosser. Enjoy where you are. Take a trans-Pacific flight and hang out in the cockpit for 7 hours. Then, see what you think. If you want to really fly, keep doing what you're doing. If you want to get paid to sit and do nothing (nothing wrong with that if you're really tired of flying) then look at a long-haul job.

CX no longer hire DEFOs.

The only way in is through cadet entry SOs.

1. >1500 hrs (4-12 week course).
2. <1500 hrs (30 week course).
3. < 250 hrs (60 week course).


CX can hire DEFOs but with CX going for 3 crew long haul and looking at cruise pilot MPLs and the hassle with bases, bypass pay etc, hiring of DEFOs in the future is doubtful plus if they do it'll be local terms like the new SOs.

CX is not what it used to be.

WATS 2011: Cathay floats cruise co-pilot MPL

Thanks guys for the advice. That's the hard truth of everything in aviation I believe, it's all going downhill. Having said that, I think carriers like CX are still the best deals around. I understand what you say about flying the airplane but then PA28, gliding and instructing is the way for me :ok: For me flying is also about bringing cultures together and traveling, that would be longhaul. I've been in longhaul before so know what it's like, it can be boring at times for sure. At the moment I have 34 years of flying ahead of me, better with a big carrier I would say and fly the small stuff on the days off..

Ohh Pleaasssseeeee! Yes, on the last day of the exercise, the mud movers may get a token OCA lead slot, but haven't we all had the misfortune of being led by a non-air to air player enough times to realize it's an SA sucking recipe for disaster.

Bombers in an air war are like small children. They need a fighter to hold their hand when crossing the road.

Ahh for the good old days.

lmh

Triple_2, unfortunately, you won't find that at CX. The cultures in the cabin do not mingle with the cultures in the cockpit. The only time you'd be brought together is when you're forced to ride the bus to and from the aircraft. It is nothing like the camaraderie you presently experience (I'm assuming) at your European airline.

So no going out with the cabin during layovers as well i can imagine? If you wouldn't mind, could you maybe tell what kind of lifestyle you can expect at CX for a guy like me starting as a SO? I can imagine more guys reading this forum are interested to know. Thanks!

The cabin crew are often referred to as 'olympic torches'; they travel the world and never go out.

Except to Chinatown maybe.

Very few are 'westernised', nice girls but watch the eyes glaze over when you make a joke or sometimes just attempt conversation. Standards of English not good particularly among the Cantonese and mainland crew. Low salary means they prefer to stay in their rooms and hoard the outport allowances.

Some twenty years ago two of our cockpit crew were sitting in an 'airline' restaurant in Mainz, Germany. A Delta captain came over to them.

'Hey, I bet you guys are Cathay'.

'Yes how did you pick that?'

'You got no women with you and you're bitchin' about your management'.

It hasn't changed.

Good god man...
 

Triple 2... Are you freaking kidding me? How could you even consider coming to CX as a CADET with 3000 hours, (2500 on Airbus)?!?! YOU are what is wrong with our industry and why conditions continue to fall to the lowest bidder. Pathetic...:ugh:

Thanks for the info Capt Dart, much appreciated!

Haha Flaps 10, I didn't want to upset you! :) You are right, the SO conditions are slightly worse then I initially imagined. I thought if I would go to the selections, they would maybe offer me something better considering my experience but probably the chances are quite slim to non existing.. Never harms to look around and talk to people though, I just want to find a good and challenging airline where I can work for the rest of my career. I thought CX is one of the leading airlines in the world and it would be an honor to work for them.. Would say that airlines will have a problem finding proper pilots in the near future but that's a whole different discussion. If the industry goes on like this, I'm seriously considering a change of profession :(

You're not the only one :rolleyes:

Triple 2, et al:
 

Please do NOT underestimate 3 things:

1) The very high expense of living in Hong Kong, especially with no housing allowance when you are used to western standards. You will almost certainly be going backwards in lifestyle with light at the end of a very, very long tunnel. I like to compare it to attending medical school without the end-game reward$.

2) The frustration of being an SO who does not fly, have much responsibility, or receive any respect from a large percentage of the pilots. You will be assumed to have little or no relevant experience as a cadet SO, even though this is not the case in your situation. You will be lumped in with pilots far less experienced, and I believe you will come to resent this.

3) Your upgrade to JFO (AKA "untrusted" FO) is at least 4 years off from hire and possibly much more as MPP and perhaps 3 man long haul become the norm. This is to say nothing of the possibility for DEFOs further slowing your career progression. They have in the past and will again if necessary. Your flying skills will certainly degrade during this time as you are only allowed to fly the sim. It will be very challenging to keep your head in the game after the newness of everything wears off.

Don't let this be your career as a cadet at CX ---> :):uhoh::confused::(:{:ugh::yuk::yuk::yuk:

cxorcist -

Those little faces very accurately describe my 4 years as an SO.

The last three in particular!!

I made the mistake of taking a First Officer position with Oasis Hong Kong Airlines based on a promise of a quick command as I was already a -400 Captain with Dragonair. We all know what happened to Oasis. It took me less than 2 months to work out that I would stagnate and go backwards in my career if I didn't get back into the left seat quickly. Thank goodness they went bankrupt as quickly as they did. I got lucky and was back into the left seat of the A330 after 8 months of being employed. Lesson: never go backwards in your aviation career, always move forward and up. With your background of the A320 it would be a catastrophic career move to accept a Second Officer position with CX.

Heard the other day from a guy in training that SOs in about a year will be doing RT/PC with an STC in the left seat, they will also have to do a sim session once a month. This is instead of the current Mod system where you do a sim once every two months, two of those each year being a regulatory check.

You may wonder why they are doing this or you may already know. The Mod system is for the P2X rating, this new sim every month and an RT/PC system is for the soon to be introduced P1X rating. Don't get excited, no base training and still no hours useful anywhere else, all so there can be two SOs on ULH flights.

So in the middle of this safety audit, and the ever quoted line of "safety is our top priority", they are inventing the way to introduce a system that will result in almost all of our ULH flights having a guy in the right seat for landing who can hardly keep his eyes open due to always getting the worst rest.

Oh will also mean ages to upgrade for an SO as am sure with this new rating they will not make the mistake again of it only being valid for 5 years. Will make the job of being an FO more crappy also

edit to add: This will also free up many many hours on the rosters of FOs so will further reduce the hiring needs for experienced guys.

SloppyJoe

I don’t want to poo poo you rumour but a quick numbers check on the back of my beer coaster tells me the numbers don’t add up.

Let’s assume we have about 250 SO’s. This means the training department would have to find an extra 750 sim slots a year. The sims are already operating at or close to max capacity as it is so I find it difficult to see how they could find an extra 750 slots with the current capacity constraints. We are also desperately short of training captains so finding the extra STC’s to conduct the RT/PC’s is hugely problematic given the current training task already planned.

I’m not saying the rumour isn’t true. I just think it is difficult to make the numbers add up. Also CX can roster 2 x SO's now if they want. They don't need a P1X rating to achieve it. The real reason they want a P1X rating is because projected upgrade times will go well past five years (the life of a P2X rating) if 2 x SO's are used on ULH flights.

The five year limit on the P2X rating is not an issue. Waivers have already been given by the CAD for those who left and then re-joined. The document uses the words ".....should normally etc....within 5 years".