SLS to be paid back in March
 

Heard this directly from 3rd Floor.

I heard it would be paid on April 1st.

Actually, it's been heard from Lvl 2 of KA for about 3-4 weeks as well.. Big profit announcement with year end statement and return of SLS...

we'll see....

With a pre-condition that you sign for RA 85 first

If it is repaid, I bet it will be as a ex-gratia payment. Then it is not provident fundable and we get screwed for helping them out.:mad::yuk:

What about FOs & SOs?
 

What about the FOs & SOs who elected the option to take COS 08 in lieu of SLS? What will their repayment be?

NOTE: This is not meant to be a debate about whether those guys did the right thing or not, simply a question of what their reward for helping out will be.

broadband circuit

Those who chose COS 08 elected for 65 retirement instead of paying 2-3 weeks of salary.

Why would they get anything at all?

Unbelievable
 

Hey Fwd cofg, what an unbelievable statement....rumours of paying back money you agreed to give up, yet you still spin it to sound like you are getting screwed. How can someone giving you money be screwing you??
I hope your views are supported by the minority
:ugh:

It's very simple: if CX have returned to a comfortable level of profitability, and they return the SLS, then they have acted honourably and I will acknowledge them for that. If the above mentioned economic situation is in place and they do not return the SLS, they will have not acted honourably, and any future request for such assistance will elicit the obvious response.

There has to be an accepted level of behaviour between the employer and the employed. Cathay needs to do the right thing when the circumstances warrant. We shall see....

The spin will be; sign COS08 and you can have your SLS in return. :}

I already got my SLS back when I decided NOT TO ACCEPT IT. :ugh:

If you are so hard up for it, why did you take it? :rolleyes:

And if they do report a profit, it would be pretty lame if they don't pay out a full 13th month plus bonus by using the excuse that they "payed back" concessions that were given by the employee group.

They better start spending that money before they have to report profits. Look for really big expenses that don't make any sense... :rolleyes:

Sqwak, good for you... You have nothing to worry about then do you? You made a choice, I made a choice...the company will make theirs. The template was made obvious after the SARS pay cut. I decided to sign onto SLS because on balance I felt it was important to be seen to join other staff in demonstrating support for the company during a difficult time. I wasn't expecting anything back....UNLESS the company returned to reasonable health. If that is the case, then the company should honour their obligations. If you didn't contribute...THEN WHAT BUSINESS IS IT OF YOURS TO EVEN COMMENT..? :mad:

ps. whats 'payed'...?

Hey Sqwak

If they do pay SLS back then those that did sign up will have had up to 4 weeks leave for free. What did you get?

STP

Water check,

Exactly how long have you been at Cathay??????

You are either naive beyond belief, or a complete Bulll Sh!tter.

Steve the Pirate,

What we got is integrity,,, you can have your four weeks! :yuk::yuk:

Well, if nobody had signed for SLS, we would have worked less anyway... on some fleet anyway. 10% overcrew this year, a bit more last year probably.

The nice thing was being able to get our leave in one block. Bad thing of course was the paycut.

I always wanted the AoA to negociate a kind of "loan" to the company.
Meaning endorsing the SLS deal only if we get the assurance it would eventually be paid back.

Now if squak didn't sign for it, fair enough, he's got his reason.
I didn't want to sign for it (difficult financial year,...), but I honestly did by fear of being singled out as being one of the few not taking it.
I hope for him he got away with a lot more money due to overtime... or as much time off as we had.
But please, squak, don't complain if we get back what we didn't really enjoy giving up to the company.

Now, only after SLS has been paid back, it would be time to ask for a full 13th month, profit share, etc...

My bet is the company will have to keep the SLS money to pay its various legal bills.

Flap 10

STP

Steve the Pirate

Flap10

Watercheck
 

"The template was made obvious after the SARS pay cut"

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't recall a "pay cut" resultant of SARS. I do recall a "voluntary" unpaid leave scheme. However, that scheme was predicated on the basis that the company would pay the lost salary back as and when they could. No such undertaking was given for SLS. I'm not sure I would call that a "template".

Fly123456...... I guess you are based then.....

Liam,

Well I actually am.

Would it ease you if I phrased it that way:

Give us back two weeks of SLS money, then complete the 13th month, then the rest of SLS money, then the profit share?

But provided (almost) everybody gave up 3 or 4 weeks salary, and every HK based crew already received half a 13th month:
If the company has to choose between paying a full 13th month or repaying the SLS money, we are better off getting SLS money, aren't we?

Of course I would like to see the company paying everything, and much more!

BlueEng
 

Since when would Cathay repaying the interest free money that they took off their employees, under duress, be called free money????

The owners of this company did not paid any cash towards the shortfall of operating profit during the GFC.

It was the employees that sacrificed cash, after veiled threats and intimidation made by management!!!!!!!!!

If there is a repayment of SLS (which I doubt will happen), minus any provident fundable parts, as an gratia-payment. Then I will have given up more money than most staff did in SLS.

BlueEng, you may be happy to bend over for management, but I am not.

Unbelievable

Flap10

Ahh, good old Camus. But to quote him again:

and:

Personally, I prefer Immanuel Kant - he was a real pissant who was very rarely stable.

STP

Fly123456
 

It's all perception and no doubt falls on partisan lines.

Big generalization, but most HK based crew consider that they are paid 13 months of salary for 12 months work; as is (was) the way of HK. They consider the non-payment of 13th month as an 8.3% enforced pay-cut.. pure and simple.

In the UK, Europe, US etc you are paid 52 weeks, 26 fortnights or 12 months salary for 1 years work; that is the way of such countries. At the risk of confusing you, the parallel situation would be that you "volunteered" SLS and then didn't receive your December salary because the company had an unsatisfactory year and then the HK staff suggested that everyone be repaid SLS and you will get your December salary if there is some money left in the pot.... would you be a bit erked?

As an aside, those FO's on B scale based in the UK, or on a salary expressed as percentage of B Scale UK FO, had their salary scale grossed up in 1999 to include 13th month. So if you are on such a payscale, then you effectively receive 13th month (or a large %) every year....... make you feel better?

I have no idea what the should or will do? If they feel motivated to do anything (which I doubt), I imagine they will do an ex-gratia payment of $HK30,000 or repayment of SLS, whichever is the lesser. That will keep the majority happy and provide best bang4bucks.....

I suspect that they will pay the staff according to profit sharing scheme if there is any profit so that the cockpit crew will be screwed again.:ugh:

Any extra money would be gratefully received at this stage Its been a tough year, especially if you UK based and have always lived in the Euro zone!

If there is any cash left over, management have proven their worth through this tough period with stellar fuel hedging etc and should pat themselves on the back and give themselves a nice big bonus! :}

ForwardCofG,

No deduction was made from the provident fund payment. Each month you received full provident fund contribution as if there had been no SLS deduction.

Chill...

... how about my integrity and a decent amount of overtime. Good enough for you? :ugh:

Grow a sack and stop working for free, you are cheapening our profession. :yuk:

Hi Sqwak

I assume you mean you kept your integrity which is good. A fair amount of overtime is also good - well done. Personally, I too love working 6 days straight followed by a day off and then another 6 days before I can spend some quality time with my family telling them how much EFP I've earned while the collaborators are on the beach...

However, how you can possibly infer from my question that I work for free is completely beyond me. In fact, how you can infer that I took SLS is also beyond me. I suppose had I phrased my question: "Hey Sqwak, blah, blah, blah. What did WE get?" you would have assumed that I was indeed a brother-in-arms and that my sack is as big as yours.

Defiance takes many forms and the one that you choose might not necessarily suit another so peace out brother (or sister, as I certainly don't want to be accused of making a sexist assumption if indeed you don't have a sack).

STP

Took SLS happily.

Spent 3 weeks on the beach and at Disney in FL, US with my kids.

had a ball, and it was priceless.

If we get it some of it back, great. If not, I'd do it again for the time.. KA isn't CX.. there's no big blocks of leave . If I get 3 G's in a row I'm excited.

If you didn't take it, bully on you.. I'll have yours thanks.. cause my kids will always remember the time we had, and so will I.

I work to provide a life and a future for my family.. balance.

Well, I guess I see your points. I never really considered that someone would take SLS purely for the fact that they wanted time off. I thought about taking some for that same reason, but unlike Dragonair, Cathay made no guarantee that I could take all the weeks together.

They told me that they would make an "effort" to give it in 1 week blocks. Effort of 1 week blocks was just not good enough for me and I looked at it as an opportunity for Cathay to work-stack my roster. This, to me, made SLS look more like a pay-cut rather than unpaid leave from work.

But I'll give you that if you got the long block of time off with the family all at once, I do agree, that would be worth doing and I would not mind if they did not pay me back for it. :ok:

Err, excuse me for intruding in your entertaining tête à tête. Dragonair were NOT given ANY promises about blocks of SLS. It was clearly stated to us that they would make every attempt lah, but no commmitments could be made.

In my case, I was assigned two 2 week blocks (which have not yet been taken)

Back to round 4, or is it 5? :ok:

Why would anyone take SLS in the first place? But more to the point, for those who took it, why would the company return the money without getting the leave back?

Flap 10 and Sqawk...................:ok:

I think most of you miss the salient point in this issue: if those of us who chose not to co-operate with SLS are proven to have been the 'smart' ones, then any future request from the company for another SLS type scheme would be met with far fewer participants. For the company to have an effective method of attaining the help of it's employees, they must be seen to be 'fair' in recompensing the employees when the situation turns for the better. That is the reason the company will refund most if not all of the money in question.

If 6 weeks of annual leave isn't enough to have a quality vacation with your family, then perhaps a change in carreer is overdue.

If the solution to poor rostering is through SLS, what hope do we have of ever improving our rosters.

If the majority of the aircrew accept SLS, and take repeated paycuts, what hope do we have of ever improving our salaries.

AAIGUY,

You bitch about salaries in previous posts and forums and yet you state here that you'll happily take SLS again. Well you've sent a clear message to management if you are willing to continually part with your money...you're simply overpaid!!

Interestingly enough when the unpaid leave scheme was started, a scheme were the terms were more favorable, only a very low percentage of aircrew opted for it. Quality time with family didn't seem to be an issue then. When the company forced SLS upon the aircrew with veiled threats, 97% signed up....you draw your own conclusions.

Legality
 

There may be some legal issues. The 13th month is a contractual payment. SLS re-payment is not. Thirteenth month can only be withheld if profit thresholds are not met. If it turns out that those profit thresholds were met, and 13th month was witheld then it is a serious breach of our COS. One that has much more serious consequences for those of us in Hong Kong. IMHO it is more of a long term worry than whether or not we get SLS back.

SLS may not be given back and there is no contractual or legal reason to force the co. to do otherwise. Hopefully SLS was a one off and is not going to be used anytime soon. The company was very quick to deduct pay from us in a down economy and they are very slow to give profit share in years of record profit.

For those on a base that took SLS, SLS re-payment first is clearly better, however if you look at it from a business point of view, you made a deal and got what was on offer, with no guarentees. 13th month is part of Hong Kong Crew's contract and if it is not paid back the Hong Kong crew have a right to challenge that in court.

In an ideal world remainder of 13th month paid in full first and then SLS repaid.

Of course profitability would have to be above the savings made through SLS !!

Actually no. The 13th month is paid solely at the company's discretion. It is also paid in December. If the company 'subsequently' (ie: after December) decide that revenues/profits are recovering to a suitable level, the company can make any decision in respect of SLS/Profit sharing they wish. The decision on 13th month has come and gone. SLS however was an 'emergency' measure that would obviously be revisited when the company's finances had recovered. SARS was a similar situation. As I mentioned earlier, the company would want to reserve the opportunity to launch similar schemes in the future if needed. If they are not seen to 'play fair' after the fact, they would have an impossible task in convincing employees to partake. Furthermore, to not refund a substantial portion of it would demonstrate that the 'dissidents' were right NOT to participate...and i'm sure that isn't the message that CX mgmt would want to be learned....:=

They'll either pay SLS or profit share... I'm not counting on both.

And if they only pay profit share then they'll have managed to make eternally disgruntled employees out of the SLS crowd. But then it sounds just like something they would do...

SLS = Paycut :confused: Work x number of weeks less and get paid for x number of weeks less. That is not a paycut.

If you actually worked for x number of weeks and did not get paid for x number of weeks then that would be a paycut.

Flap 10, your pomposity is staggering. 6 weeks with my kids is nowhere near enough. I would spend 52 weeks of the year with them if I could. I guess it's your business if you value money/work ahead of your loved ones. I'm sure that when your time comes and you are lying on your deathbed that you will be wishing "gee, I wish I spent more time at work" :ok:

The added time with my kids and outa H.K. has enriched all our lives immensely. If SLS is repaid that is a bonus, if not then c'est la vie and I have wonderful memories that will sustain me when my turn comes :)