13th Month
 

There won't be one, he's finally said it so there...

Half a month’s salary or HK$8,000, whichever is the greater.

Discuss.

The Chief Executive announced today that this has been a particularly difficult year for the Company. As a result, the Company is not in a position to pay one month’s salary as a discretionary year-end bonus to eligible employees. However, in consideration of the hard work and dedication of our employees, the Company will pay every eligible Hong Kong-based employee an ex-gratia payment of an amount equal to half a month’s salary or HK$8,000, whichever is the greater.

NC, could you show a calculation for a ground staff with a salary of $6000 per month.

the Company will pay every eligible Hong Kong-based employee an ex-gratia payment of an amount equal to half a month’s salary or HK$8,000, whichever is the greater.

Next phase of the onslaught: video monitors in the street playing on repeat 24 hrs - "this is our darkest hour" - turnbull.

Cabin crew in the bus the otherday are so intimidated they were talking of CX closing down due to no money for salary bill - right up TT's agenda that one is - Rule by fear, not respect.

AFL

Svengali,

jealousy will get you nowhere. Those on $6,000/mth, will get $8,000 bonus, Good luck to em.

400 Jockey,

suggest you invest at leat part of your 'bonus' in some vaseline...oh and remember you'll have to pay the first $50 when you visit the proctologist to get the protest banner splinters out of you colon! :ooh:

Life's a bitch eh?

Wishing You the best of Health at all times,

N1 Vibes

Don't be petty. It is in the KA contract. I am sure KA pilots will pay for fuel hedging ineptitude elsewhere.

Don't play into any management trap of one versus the other. Though I fear that is well beyond the professional maturity of CX pilots.

Ex-Gratia...
 

Okay,
So we're receiving some form of recognition for our hard work..blah,blah,blah..but as an "ex-gratia"...
To those who are wondering, what does ex-gratia actually mean ???

Wikipedia states the following :

"Ex gratia (sometimes ex-gratia) is Latin (lit. 'by favour') and is most often used in a legal context. When something has been done ex gratia, it has been done voluntarily, out of kindness or grace. In law, an ex gratia payment is a payment made without the giver recognising any liability or legal obligation"

Having read the above several times, it just so seems there are some key words in the paragraph which don't seem to fit the 'BIG PICTURE', the one we're constantly urged to 'seek'.:ugh:
First and foremost, 1/2mth's salary or HKD 8,000 (whichever is higher) out of kindness or grace ??? Please !:suspect:
Secondly, giver not recognising any liability or legal obligation ? Hmmm...sounds a bit too legal to me.. Will we be receiving a letter of contract, requiring a signature before receiving this 'ex-gratia' ?

Let me get this straight, we're NOT getting 13mth but the company is making itself seem like it's doing us a 'favour'.... out of the kindness of their hearts ? Don't know about you.. but right now, I'm melting with that warm fuzzy feeling deep within.:yuk:

Ex-gratia : Might use that word next time, once reporting sick for duty a mere 20 minutes before sign on :E

i hear the base guys get their 13th month in 12 installments everymonth to cover their tax. any views on that?

Ya, I hear the base guys are getting a raise too.:}

While I am suprised that we have been given anything, what makes this such a slap-in-the-face is the nearly HK$3.3 billion dollars that has been lost this year due to poor fuel hedging and cargo fines, with the staff suffering for management incompetence and oversight failures. Interestingly, the hedging loss/fines amount to approximately 10 times the CX monthly wage bill, excluding KA etc.

With more cargo fines to come in the future it is disappointing that CX has done nothing to prove to its staff that it is serious in corporate governance and compliance issues. At least other airlines made a token effort by sending a few 'sacrificial lambs' to jail as a result of their injustices in the cargo arena.

Sadly, if management thought this would appease staff I think they have misread the current state of morale.

so...

there you are. another year of mismanagement followed by the crew getting screwed. the question remains.. what are we going to do about it.?
what are the options?
what can you do?
what are the hkaoa committee doing to help?

the answers are simple:

the option is yours to take..
the hkaoa would have a vastly stronger position if we had all the flight crew as members of the hkaoa. it is no coincidence the cx managers have removed hkaoa application information from the mail boxes. their biggest fear and greatest opponent is a strong and united crew body.

what can you do?
if you are not already a member of the hkaoa, join. if they had the strength in numbers of the entire crew body we would have been able to have the leverage to obtain the 13th month and profit share. consider this: if the fees were 500/month ( average ) then that would equate to 6000/yr - even a brand new second officer would have profited by 14000 by being a member of the hkaoa after membership fees.. just think it through for the more senior officers..
what you need also to think about if you already are a member is to start recruiting the non-members into the hkaoa. there are plenty of reasons why. if you cant think of topics why - have a look at my thread on education on this forum . what all members need to be doing is talking to non members about the issues and giving the hkaoa their contact details ( email / mob ph ) to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org.

what are the hkaoa committee doing to help?
remember- any union is only as strong as its members. there also is a saying that any company gets the union it deserves.. after years of treatment like this and the outright robbery that has occured not only in this financial year due to the sheer ineptitude of the managers, but in years gone by, is it not time to take a more active part? the committee members of the hkaoa are volunteers. they cant be everywhere at all times and are busy containing the fires the company have started recently and of course in the past. they need all the help they can get from the members. start a recruiting drive. appoint yourself as the recruitment officer for the hkaoa. without a strong and comprehensive membership we are sure to have this situation again in the future whilst the DFO/ CEO etc etc etc all smile and take large bonuses - all paid for by stealing from the crew whilst momentus errors have lost millions. just think about that.

send the email/ mob ph of new interested crew to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org

Those are big IF's strike committee.
IF everybody joined the AOA,
IF they had enough leverage to negotiate,
Just look at past track record, less than acceptable I think...:(

So Hydrolix , tell me what you gain IF you stay a non member and IF you are a tosspot on the sideline bagging people who come up with perfectly good reasons why being a member of the AOA might help our contract? Does it actually have a negative effect on you if cx pilots are well represented? Honest questions......

Quote:
if they had the strength in numbers of the entire crew body we would have been able to have the leverage to obtain the 13th month and profit share.

How ? New COS ?:=

oh, you again...

nonpilot. thankyou for bringing up yet another example proving your status as a 3rd floor creeper.

the whole point of the forums are to show and discuss the issues at hand. your use of this := figure reminds me of a school teacher telling the students off in class... how very righteous of you. this is the old way of dealing with your valued staff. it is no longer acceptable.

the truth is however, when the membership levels rise again to past levels we will have the leverage and mandate to negotiate the 13th month and profitshare. if this were to involve a new COS then so be it.

to hydolix. yes there are if's. but an oak tree starts from an acorn. the point of my previous thread was to illustrate the tangible benefit for a non-member and a member alike should we once again achieve a united crew body. we have had it in the past and given the treatment recieved by the workers of this company, will achieve it again. it all starts by increasing the member numbers.

once again i say - become involved. if you are flight crew in cx you have been affected by this. i have shown you in my previous thread that it makes financial reason to join the hkaoa. you need to talk about the issues and recruit members.

send details ( email / mob ph ) of interested crew to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org

chards
 

It makes no difference whether we are in the union or not - that has been proven (case in point by ST unilatterally extending the RP agreement when a vote actually turned it down). Management has done nothing but negotiate with the AOA for conditions worse than previous. Negotiations for everything take years as management can stall as they please with the union sticking their hands in the air, and don't say "well things are different now, we have a new president and committee etc", tell me the last time the AOA did anything beneficial for the pilot body as a whole - not minute wins, I mean large victories which have significantly bettered the COS of flight crew. I am happy to stand corrected but I don't think anything has really been acheived for many years, why? Divide and conquer by management. You will never get a union to agree when there are so many different COS and packages. I am financially better off because I don't have to pay subs. You'd be better off negotiating individually with management, about as successful I reckon.

So you do that do you? Funny the contract you signed was good enough for you to join and who negoiated that for you again? The housing allowance is as high as its ever been and who got that for you? FTL's could be a darn site worse were it not for the AOA. Wake up. Having low membership gives the company the best of both worlds as if the vote goes against them their excuse is "well that isn't representative of the majority of the aircrew". That is how they can and do justify their actions.

You and your family are also financially better off THANKS to the AOA.:) Just turning up to work everytime you are in fact benefiting from the things the AOA has negotiated yet you try to but fail to justify not contributing.:ugh:

Saying you would rather negotiate your own contract is a nothing statement as you know that is and never will be possible.

Gee Hydrolix, if everyone has the same outlook then we are in real trouble.

The union has been a mess for years but is now on the road to recovery. For once we seem to have our house in order.

The fact that NR feels it necessary to sabotage/prevent/call it what you like contact with new joiners shows that he is really worried about a strong union. NR and the CX management are trying really really hard to prevent this happening.

What further motivation do you need?

Hydro,
what have you got to lose by not being a member? What is the rational for people to not join the union? The new membership fees are not exactly taxing given other things that people spend their money on.

Consider the basic tenements. Not being a member gives you absolutely no chance of ever being able to negotiate anything of worth from the company. Having a strong unified workforce gives you some (even if slim) chance of avoiding complete subserviance. Sure the AoA can't deliver everything everyone wants right now but it is the only, I repeat only way that the aircrew body is represented to management.

Isn't it worth at least having some sort of shot at protecting your rights as opposed to absolutely nothing at all? Come on everyone, join up and write off the expense as one less night in Wanchai.

Cheers
CMOT.

hello again hydrolix.

thanks for the reply.
well, where do i start..
well, i beg to differ. i shudder to think what would be if cx had open season on the COS. whether or not you are in fact a crew member remains to be seen. i am certain that things would be significantly worse than that which we see now. remember- in the not too distant past - just before 911 we had the company on the ropes. they were struggling with the 49ers decison, wet leased aircraft, high crew sickness, bad PR, court cases. then after 911 things changed. what happened? i can tell you what happened. the airline industry changed and we were forced to adopt a different strategy to adapt to the changed climate. unfortunately the pendulum swung too far and is now swinging back toward where we were. CX mismanagement have shown themselves to be the greedy, heartless specimens that we always knew they were, only now we have the truth right in front of us to see. it makes no difference whether we are in the hkaoa? i beg to differ. as time goes on more and more crew will see the benefits of unity. we can easily get back to the posiion of strength and management will lead the way with their underhand tactics.

mamagement can stall, as long as the crew are not united. this is the whole point. the unity comes from leadership and members taking it upon themselves to promote the union cause. once again check out this link on education to promote discussion on events that have caused this situation. the situation that can only be remedied increasing membership..

well there you go.. good for you for saving the subs. this link shows your flawed argument there.. if you honestly consider the subs to be a hardship, you are only fooling yourself for the benefits recieved now and the potential in the future. individual contracts are too funny to even talk about... nice try..

for real cx crew:
talk to interested crew about the issues, then pass on their details ( email/ mob ph ) to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org

Strike Committee
 

I do understand your argument but I remain to be convinced. Even if membership is 100%, at what lengths will the AOA go to obtain better conditions. For example, I don't think many people think that 3 man crew to Europe and maybe Vancouver (anything under 14 hours I believe) is a particularly good thing. What lengths do you think the AOA will take to make sure this doesn't happen. The new CAD FTL's come out soon with a provision for exactly this, Vol 1 will be amended and we will be stuck with it - by the end of 2010 if we're lucky, by the start of next year if not. Even if we had 100% membership, what would the AOA do. Negotiate for a payrise, which in these "uncertain" times seems very uncertain or something else. Contract compliance? Strike? Even if the committee recommends such actions, I doubt whether a significant majority would. I would be happy to join the union if I can be convinced. Start your engines........

hydrolix ( and all the rest of the members to be.. )

good to hear you are in need of convincing.. that is the first step.. the open mind...
firstly, lets get past the standard hurdles. i truly dont believe that the fees are of such a significant amount to stop any member to be. if anyone is so restricted financially so as not to be able to afford them, i would suggest that they would need more than most any financial gains to be got and probably advice from a financial expert!!

secondly, think of the options:

stick with the status quo. this will lead to what? more of the same, no progress, years of struggle and strain, uncertainty and financial loss. uncertainty for you and your families future.

join the hkaoa. become part of a building presence. invest in your career by standing up for your rights. stopping the chipping away of your benefits and salary and erosion of your conditions of service. of course all of this wont happen overnight and each of us will have to DO SOMETHING to help. you will have to start taking pride in our positions within the company and take back the ground that has been taken from us over the years. will we have to strike? i hope not? that is the whole point. unity gives options. options that have been successful in the past not only with the hkaoa, but with other unions overseas. this is what we have to strive toward. all of this is achievable, but only by committing to what we have to achieve and all doing it together. i have said it many times already. each of us has to play their part. if all you do is talk over the issues with crew you fly with and if they show interest, get their details and send it in to the hkaoa for the committee members responsible to follow up. cx managers have shown their fear of the hkaoa gathering this same information.

all in all, the reason is up to you. i could sit here all day and write, but ultimately a personal decision has to be made to get involved and play a part in something good. the first step is the hardest. once you join , you have the right to participate and have joined the fight to improve your career.

if anyone talks to crew who are interested email their details ( email / mob ph ) to hkaoa @ hkaoa.org

A good post Strike Committee, I do agree with a lot of what you've said, and the decision is still open at this stage. As for the subs - what are they?

I can completely understand and sympathise with the 'why bother' attitude on the AOA. But to me being in the AOA is akin to inoculations....if everyone else has their kids inoculated for any particular disease, then you don't need to bother inoculating your kid(s). In fact, it is quite smart not to as there is always a risk in having your child(ren) inoculated. The only benefit in being innoculated is not getting sick - but then what were the chances of you getting sick in the first place? Its hard to justify the benefits in the absence of something until you have personally experienced the malaise being prevented.

So to complete the metaphor, the subs are the small risk and the rewards are in you getting 'less sick' or having less degraded CoS.

The only way either side can ever prove they are right is by having 100% in the union acting cohesively or no one in any union and letting the company and individual come up with their own terms and conditions.

Hydro, NC
 

Hydrolix is a freerider

I long ago came to the conclusion that 100% membership in any organisation is unrealistic - for the simple reason that a minority of employees only ever consider their own perspective.

Luckily at KA people like Hydrolix are few and far between. It would be nice to think most people joined the DPA to provide 'group cover' to their peers, rather than looking for individual benefit, and I think most people appreciate the cameraderie and feeling that each of us is looking out for the other.

By comparison, wage rises and renegotiated contracts are small beer. Anyone who thinks you're better off on your own is a poor student of history - industrial and otherwise, and probably shouldn't be in a multi-crew cockpit.

Good luck to the new AOA team - you're sending the right message.

Karrupted

Back in the late 80's, early 90's the membership rate was near 100%...hmm, we also saw annual raises of 10% +. Evidence = Theory = Fact.

All this talk about the AoA. What the fuk can the AoA do about the discretionary 13th month. Yup, nothing. As everybody is aware the membership of the AoA is quite "low" to be modest.

Now why dont some of you grow some balls and take some action instead of winching like little girls. Just take back the other 14 days of that u rightfully deserve. The Christmas month is coming up why not plan on spending it with you family. Now "The" Company has just made that so very possibly. GO SICK an show whos in control or shut up. :}:ok:

Leave the AoA to do whatever little they can. :ok:

Merry Christmas everybody. :D

Yeager all that going sick does is make someone else have to do YOUR work, it does not hurt the company whatsoever as you are in fact only taking the 14 days from someone else on the roster.:hmm:

You are still a complete DH but on the positive side you are almost fluent in English these days.:ok:

Dear Mess,

Somehow I am not suprised that you would reply to my reply. U do have a tendency to be rather fragile to my posts. Anyways good to hear from you again, mate.

Well. Thank you for acknowledging my improvements in English. It really means a lot to me what you think. While we are at the topic, hows it going with you languages? Making progress or just same same, mate.

Obviously, my good friend, you missed the point of calling sick. I shall make it simple, not to confuse you. Its just at way of taking what you should have been given (a 13th months salery!). Period for that bid.

The pathetic point that somebody else will have to work makes no sense. Thats why we have standby duties. If everybody did have some balls and did the same thing, instead of accepting getting shafted, what do you think would happen? Dont you think somebody (management) would notice that the body responded to managements actions and maybe (only maybe!) reconsider next time?

Now why am I still a Decision Height - maybe I still need to improve my English.. :ok:

I would like to wish you a Merry Christmas, The Mess, but I just dont know if you will have to work on your standby while I am having Christmas with my family.. :ok:

Tiger321..and exactly WHAT has the AOA done for its "house to be in order?!?":confused:

Joining letters were recently removed by the company from postboxes (which made the newspaper headlines) but still NOTHING has been done by the AOA..

Now talking about joining:I have no problem with joining and paying subs,but herein lies the paradox..

You see,if I join and pay,I shall have a mutual agreement with the AOA,as a paying member I would expect them to follow up and actually DO SOMETHING about every single issue that I have (...and there is a very long list..!!!)

Now then,if they don't follow up and act on my issues,that means breach of contract and I will then hold the AOA accountable..

You see,that's the difference between you and I.You simply pay and pay your subs every month..and always hope that your AOA will be "taking a step in the right direction..." and all that bull:mad:

As for me..I WILL get my lawyers onto the AOA if they don't deliver,and not only will I sue them for ALL subs paid WITH interest,but also a couple of million extra for the break of mutual trust placed in them and their constant laissez-faire approach to everything!!:yuk:

Face it...the company is laughing at the AOA...and indirectly at all you clowns who keep it afloat!!:ok:

Sorry Slapfaan but your post cannot go without some form of rebuttal .What you propound is self-absorbed nonsensical rubbish. Can I ask why you have not sued Cathay for the breaches to your CoS? You have a written contractual agreement with them and yet the lawyer option you purport with such vehemence is surprisingly dormant. But that is the point isn't it because people like you are big on extravagent talking and exceptionaly poor at rational debating.

If you feel that you do not want representation, that the benefits to you are better out than in the AOA, then state in a logical reason your case for such. But don't just spout mordant rubbish and expect people to take you seriously.

I for one am hoping that the half 13 month payout will make people re-consider their position on joining the AoA. The AoA might not be able to achieve much, but they are the only way of achieving something other than nothing. Then again, if I only care about money, apparently I can just take them to court......

So slapfaan, please inform us how you have been bettering our COS outside of the AOA?

slapfaan. Congratulations on posting just about the most self absorbed, moronic statement I have ever read. Tell you what; do us a favour and DON'T join the AOA, and we'll do you a favour and allow you to run your own little 'Don Quixote' war against all and sundry.... :}

It's interesting to see just how far some of you guys are removed from reality - just wait until the C-crunch really hits the world economy. :(

Being in an ivory tower in the Far East arguing about half-a-month pay loss is all very well but at least you have a job and a salary!!

Yeah, flame away all those with minds narrow enough :*


(And up yours, too!!!)

Kafe,

Yes, we have a job and a salary.. SO then we should just be fat and happy.. With that attitude where will we be in ten years from now. Happy enough to have a job and fly for food. This is not about having a job and a salary. Its about getting what we think we deserve. Management in Cathay Pathetic have serverly screwed up in year 2008. Huge fine in the US and completely screwed up the fuel hedging - and for that they want the employees to pay. On the positive side CX employees are so used to being shafted that for most it does not hurt so much anymore. :eek:

I am truely sorry for you if you dont have a job and wish you the best of luck in getting one

Hei Kafe..


Why don't you sell your computer, your furniture, your extra clothes and donate the money and volunteer your time with the red cross helping the hungry, homeless, misplaced and hopeless people of Darfur or Somalia? How dare you waste your valuable time and resources in meaningless online discussions when people are dying lacking basic needs around the world? At least you have shelter, food, water and basic human rights... isn't that enough for you in your ivory tower when so many in the world have so much less? Do you honestly want more?

Everything in this world is relative. It's a crude comparison, but your argument is exactly the same. Why don't we all be content with what we've got until everyone else has the same.... which as I'm sure you know is a political viewpoint we've seen throughout history.

Or are you just indulging your share of envy at the cost of becoming a hypocrite?