liam
 

"and if I am?"... nothing. i'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

and let me ask you (and everyone else) this.

do you think the aoa has a better negotiating position if

a) we have 10% membership

b) we have 55% membership or

c) we have 100% membership

not a tricky question, i think.

when nick and his mates read these forums and see us bickering amongst ourselves, they just laugh and rub their hands together! let's stop providing them comic relief and give them something to worry about instead!

Saturn
 

Dry your eyes Princess....

Back to the debate then; with your very recently new found enthusiasm for the AOA, can you (or anyone else) tell me what the main point(s) of difference are between PW and ST? Surely ST knew he had to increase the membership to make the AOA more effective.

PS Do you know much about 411A? Suggest you PM me the answer....

pprune has a really good IGNORE function - and I've just added Liam :ok:

Oh brother
 

Not looking back. Looking forward now. ST is gone. Join us or don't. Be part of the problem or the solution. I for one am going to really try and give it a chance if not I will just move on. That simple. We cannot be divided. We have been for some time and it is time now to regroup. We only have ourselves to blame.:ugh:

Great Presentation.
Congratulation Mr. President. It was clear and simple like a CBT lesson unmistakably simple and effective.
I would join at once But i'm not in this industry.

good job !

So Tired et al
 

PW's message is the same as STs, which was same as MG's, which was the same as ND's, which was same as TP's. The greater the membership numbers, the greater the AOA's effectiveness.... Union 101...

Let us not forget that ND had over 90% membership in 2001; we can all debate how effective the AOA was in 2001, but what is not up for debate is that membership has dropped markedly since.... that's a fact... and the membership numbers dropped because of the POLICIES of the successive Presidents.

Impressive as PWs presentation was; its been done before. To get membership up let us hear some POLICIES.. what are we buying into?

Saturn and CPdude have recently found a new Messiah... and now me and the other 45% not in the union are expected to join with them in this leap of faith (I've always found it's best to look before one leaps). How is the new Messiah different than the old one?

Let's look at PW and ST. They are both seemingly likeable, hardworking, highly intelligent men. Both are "B" Scale Capts and both are ex-British Military Fast Jet. PW has served on the GC for a considerable time under ST and I understand PW was on the Negotiating Committee that reported back to ST in Aug 08 with the proposed deal that included extentions on A scales and what was to become COS 08...yes.. the deal you all liked so much...

To get me and, I suspect a lot of others to join, it's going to take some POLICIES to gain my interest. The prospect of taking on Cx Management knowing the likes of Saturn, CPdude and ACMS are watching my 6 doesn't quite motivate me to join.

Perhaps there are some members that could better be done without!

Where would we be without the extreme lunatic fringe?
 

Sometimes I reflect on over half a century of life. And sometimes I just reflect!

And I find that I have to give some credit to the other-the-top tree-huggers, anti-war mongers and other extreme communist, socialistic bastards, ratbag extremists that infest the "civilization" in which we find ourselves.

I guess that everyone is entitled to their point of view regardless of how ridiculous some of those views may seem to the average Joe on the street.

Sometimes in considering the extremes and boundaries of ideas helps us discover and arrive at a happy medium in which most of us will find agreement and which serves to perpetuate the advancement of society in general.

So I would tend to accept ANY flight-deck crew-member to join the AOA.

So Liam it seems you may be a fellow '89 er?

I am, and I'm proud of it.

Been there, got the teashirt and after all the BS of the last 20 years I can proudly say I'm still sticking with the union through thick and thin ( membership )

At the end of the day I would like better T & C's for all of us, we are after all fellow Pilot's aren't we?

How's about with try working together for a change for the common good of all instead of arranging sweet deals for ourselves ( A scale TC extendees on Auss bases for eg )

What the hell have we to lose anyway?

If Cx wanna bust us then so be it.

But don't give up before you begin.

Followership
 

"So Liam it seems you may be a fellow '89 er?"

So ACMS it seems you are a fellow who can't be bothered to use the Search function; but hey why would you bother when bigotry and pidgeon-holing is an easy option.

This illustrates the major problem with the AOA; the membership fails to keep themselves informed about what's going on. How many times have you heard guys on the Flightdeck whinging about the volume of emails/updates they receive from the AOA; look how many failed to vote in the first RP vote. Look how many failed to participate in the recent Survey.

As aside, putting "The Management" on your banned list is regrettable. His posts are incredibly well researched, thought provoking, and I imagine only come about through effort on his behalf. I do not see why your blood pressure would rise; it is me (as a non-member) he is attacking. Of all the posters on this forum he is, by a margin, the cheerleader-in-chief for the AOA. I am also pretty confident that should things get tough, his gusset would remain dry, sequins intact and hands very firmly on the pom-poms.

Can you guys get a room or start your own thread, this is very tiring!!!! What started as a good discussion has one again degenerated into personal attacks and dribble. Either we get back on the thread or the moderator should drop this whole thread...come on guys!!!!

To Liam....
 

STFU:eek::eek::eek:

Point taken
 

Sorry guys/girls...my mistake.... The AOA is wonderful... no problems exist.....it's perfectly acceptable to post highly negative AOA comments one day and the next day pick up the pom-poms... my mistake for taking these individuals to task.... how dare I....

Happy?

PS Fenwicksgirl.... you want to debate. What are your new President's policies that separate him from the previous President?

Aoa Pin
 

Send me a pin please JF , I havent got one to wear , thru it away during MG'S tenure so I need another.....:)

Liam, no probs, thats fair enough!!
I believe the current Prez shows a "willingness" to tackle the problems we have and has a plan to go about it. First and foremost is recruiting, he makes it clear this is number one and that without good membership we cant expect too much. So on this, JF will be manning the members lounge at CX Mon-Fri to take questions etc. The GC has been given a mandate to tackle the membership numbers (i know this through contacts).
Once the membership numbers are respectable, the GC can then do their job more productively as they then truly represent the pilot body!!!
If the company still chooses not to listen, we have the numbers to apply some "pressure" to make the company see reason
So, anyway, whats your plan??

Fenwicksgirl
 

The thing is... it's not my place to come up with a plan.... PW, ably assisted by your good self, Saturn, ACMS are trying to sell the Union to me; I am not trying to sell you anything.

Thanks for regurgitating the video... I did watch it... I was looking for, and hoping that you may point out, where in the video I can identify a point of difference between this "New AOA" (plucked from the title of this thread) and the old AOA's under ST, MG, ND, TP (ie the one's I chose not to join).

You say the "new prez" has a

"willingness" to tackle the problems...

are you saying the old AOA had an "unwillingness" to tackle problems?

You say...

If the company still chooses not to listen, we have the numbers to apply some "pressure" to make the company see reason

By "pressure" are you saying the "new prez" may ask me to go on strike should he get the requisite numbers? Don't you think I might like to know this before I join? Or will he only require me to wear my tie pin?

Don't get me wrong, I can see the value of belonging to an AOA representing 100% of the pilot body. To do that we have know and believe in the policies of the President... on PPrune awhile back there was a thread calling for "Same job... same pay"... where does the "New Prez" stand on that one?

so what about our payrise ....
 

What is the AOA going to do about our overdue payrise ? , I dont have any money left at the end of the month anymore.., inflation is killing me .Anyone else in the same boat?

Bloomberg.com: Asia

I said you "may be a fellow 89 er"

goathead...............unless we improve the membership numbers we wont be getting anything extra, especially with the company having the fuel price "crisis" excuse.

It's not exactly rocket science, but some people just don't get it.

There is no them when it comes to the union. It is just us, with me being a part.

Pathetic excuses for guys too cheap to pitch in, leaving the rest of us to foot the bill.

GC Policies?
 

I must have a different view on democracy compared to most posters on Pprune. I don't remember reading prescriptive manifestos on how T+C's could be improved. So Liam et al, me thinketh we need the membership to tell us what THEY are prepared to do. With non-membership at 45% that tells me that 45% are happy with current T+C's and/or are not prepared to do anything about it. 55% are members and whilst many of us have been very unhappy with the way the past has unfolded, I personally feel now is the make or break time for my involvement. If in6-12months time we have 50-60% membership then we should do what IluvPx and everyone else suggests, disband the union and just act like we work on individual contracts for the likes of Asiana.


I have often been accused of being too optimistic - I hope the naysayers are wrong.

Two thoughts I would like to leave you with:
The past defines where you start from, not where you are heading.
CX, its just a job!

endat.

you tube ?
 

Apart from a "you tube " posting , in which the link was posted on this forum ( god knows how many from cx read this ?? ) , what else are they going to do to boost the membership , place an add in the crews news ?.....

NC
 

Actually, I read PW's manifesto and I recall that he did say something that no other president has said; a point of difference. As a non-member... it was one of those things that made you go hmmmm...

Given that nobody has raised it, I now consider I misread his manifesto (sign of being an aging rockstar). I will try and find a copy and re-read it and perhaps post it up.

My issue on this thread has been the cheerleaders referring to the "New AOA" and their inconsistent views on the AOA and their inability to define what is new. If I have consistently rejected the AOA, like 45% of the pilot body, what is new about this one?

The arguments being used to join may be valid; but are not new... you have to be in to affect change... you reap the rewards; how about bearing the costs.... have been used previously... ND in 2000 springs to mind. Next I imagine.. you are for or against us; however George W might have killed that one.

Good luck with your decision regarding the AOA... I am sure whatever it is, it shall be very well considered.

Twenty Committee Members
 

How is that going to work? , 20 people with 20 different agendas , lets start by getting on board of a couple of blood hungry lawyers..... more litigation and less individual agendas...committees just dont work , mark my words...:ugh:
JF have you sent me a new pin yet ?

BALLS and real negotiators..... LAWYERS not pilots..... or atleast a team of lawyers with a panel of pilots. Well that's the way it's done elsewhere....:ugh:

I agree with H10 - WE REQUIRE REAL NEGOTIATORS AND LAWYERS.

What makes us think just because we fly heavy metal worldwide, we can negotiate with morons such as Kim Jon Phil and his henchmen, and think we are making ANY progression ? I don't call 3% rise progression, I call it an insult.

:ugh:

100% MEMBERSHIP consisting of WHOM?
 

Where are the lawyers suing the company for its violations of our contracts? NOWHERE!

What did the 90% membership do after the 49ers? NOTHING!

What did the senior First Officer members of the AOA do when upgrades to Captain were offered to fill the slots vacated by the fired 49ers? TOOK THE UPGRADES!

100% membership in the AOA will NOT cause the company to fear us or force them to provide us better CoS because the company knows that only a very small percentage of the AOA members would ever participate in any kind of legal activity (striking, working to rule, etc.) and that, other than the lawyers which the AOA either doesn't have, or doesn't use, is the ONLY way that a "union" can influence how its members are treated by the company.

It will NEVER happen, so this whole discussion about membership numbers and new leadership is moot...

Do any of you guys know how much lawyers and professional negs cost??
At 55% membership for one we cant afford it!!! Besides the AoA does get lawyers involved when needed! Also CX work within the cracks of our contracts, lawyers would not necessarily get us the results that we need in a time frame that would suit us!! What is needed is a strong membership with a willingness to act against the company when required, ie CC!!
Oval man, what can i say, except, what do you offer as an option to what we have. I have always said, the AoA stops the company doing what it wants when it wants, it doesnt necessarily have the power to stop them all the time!!

ANY talk of 'taking on the company' is futile with the present membership numbers. Until we have over 90% membership, we may as well shut up and spend our time developing some sort of coherent strategy. Most of you who 'rationalize' your decision to not be a member tend to be the first ones to whinge and complain about things. If you think you're going to see any improvement to your conditions while not contributing to the only organization that has a hope in hell of dealing with the company...well, you're bigger fools than I already believe you are. The AOA is not perfect...never will be. They are however the only organization that has ANY dealings with the company on an industrial level. Or I suppose you fancy your chances of an 'individual' pay raise if you drop by Nicks office and ask him how the wife and kids are...? Time to grow up boys. Join the AOA, or please, shut it. The first thing I ask someone who is whining now is 'are you an AOA member'. If the answer is no, I tune them out as they don't deserve further consideration. Perhaps a little history lesson: when the membership was almost 100%, we saw raises of 10% + per year. I don't think that will happen again, but we certainly won't see a whiff of such numbers at present membership levels. BTW, Lufthansa just awarded their pilots 9%, with further raises for the next 3 years.....oh, and they nearly all belong to their union.

Oval3holer (actually, you're probably a 4 holer....but won't go there): you sir are a first class idiot. After the 49ers, the membership provided substantial legal and financial help. I don't suppose you had anything to contribute to that effort...? No, thought not.

Ah, I don't remember seeing a clause that excuses some people from a full command course and PCA, yet that is exactly what the company is doing with some pilots. That would be a case in court for unfair treatment, especially being that so many people fail the command course. Please name the last time that lawyers where involved and where on the company's case for violating T&C.

NC you are a wise man and I respect your opinion, but your assumption is flawed. You are begining with the false pretense that Union membership = pilots unhappy with contract; I disagree with that assumption. You're theory would be correct if you had some sort of evidence that showed the AOA has done something to improve the T&C, but such evidence is nowhere to be found.

Even when membership was over 90%, the company still got what they wanted, so how do you believe that getting everybody on board will change anything? Strong leadership has to lead the way with strong actions. Something that members like myself can take to non-members and say, "look at this, look what we achieved". At the moment, the best I have to offer to non-members is that they get this little gold pin to put on their tie.

You show me some actions, something to believe in besides talk, and I will show you membership increases. In my opinion, 45% non-membership says those pilots feel that their money would be wasted. I don't think that they are happy with their T&C, they just don't think paying AOA fees will change that. If you want to change that view you need to show them action. Pilot's are very rational thinkers, and what you are asking from them is sort of like "religious faith".

Up to now, all we have seen from the AOA is cooperation and submission to the company. Every update I receive reads "we will meet soon to discuss", or "we haven't reached an agreement, so this is what will happen". Or even "though you voted, we are gonna give you a chance to change your mind and see things our way".

That mentality, sir, really needs to change.

Squawk7700 you make very valid points that i think most members are feeling. I too am looking for more positive results with this new GC. I do feel however that the AoA gets a very bad wrap for the old question "What have they ever done?" I think most people would hate to think what life in CX would be like with no representation at all. I dont think the AoA is the answer to all our problems but they are the buffer we desperately need!!
90% membership must have been in the old A scale happy pilot days. Nothing against them but, pilots wont lift a finger to help themselves if the job is paying well and generally a good life. How times have changed, look what happened to Dragonair, i dont think CX is far behind. The next upturn in this industry will be interesting to say the least. 80% membership with most pilots very unhappy at work and with the company, with job options elsewhere, well now wouldnt that be interesting???
As i always ask, what are the options we have??? A strong AoA gives us our best protection and i really dont see it as being any harder than that??