KA's average payrise
 

double figures

Yeah.

Three figures would have been better! :ugh:

The Real Deal!
 

Just to put all the onlookers out of their misery ...

1st Yr FO: Backpay HK$25646; Salary 01.04.08 HK$64606 (+13.36%)
Add avg HDP HK$3575 and avg monthly salary increase 15.9%

1st Yr CN: Backpay HK$45932; Salary 01.04.08 HK$96424 (+13.36%)
Add avg HDP HK$7150 and avg monthly salary increase 19.2%

n.b. HDP is a new allowance at KA, so it is included in the pay rise.

Not too much on the Roster front at this stage (lots of promises).
J class travel on CX.
Housing up: 44K to 55K for HPS and Rent 80K(CN) and 70K(FO) - up from 64K.

Just a start, but full marks DPA!:ok:

Hey, its a start!

You could of had the great HKAOA negotiating weeks on end for you.

They got their CX members a THREE figure deal...00.0%
:ugh:

Congratulations to the DPA on there success in improving their pilots contract , its good to see a union with the balls to stand up to these tight arse's

Boy's enjoy your pay increase , you deserve it .

I am sorry to change the subject and get on to the CATHAY band wagon ,I am just so disgusted in the HKAOA .


Steve its about time you grew some balls and go there and get us a pay increase ( NO DEMAND IT ), stop sending us **** comparing us to Emirates and Qantas , why don't you compare us to Fed EX , UPS and Air France .


This handbag effort you have put in is a bloody disgrace and you and the A scale GC should be a shame of yourself .

we wont a fu@ken PAY INCREASE got it , they obviously have the cash .

Congrats Dragon Boys and the DPA. CX pilots pee themselves at the mention of Contract Compliance.:ugh::D:ok:

Got my smiles back!

I agree 100%! The HKAOA is useless. NOW is the time to join with the DPA and get RID of the AOA for a new SGPA (Swire Group Pilots' Association)!

Are you with me?

Now that you’re paid equal, you will need a provident fund and a travel fund.:ok:

Not everyone Mr Bloggs ,

Its the guys over 50 , the NON UNION MEMBERS , the CADET'S , and our friend's from the DARK CONTINENT who don't have the balls to go into contract compliance , ( generalising of course ).

I think it's getting to the point where most people have had enough , moral is so low in CATHAY as it is in DRAGONAIR , that guys have had enough getting screwed over by this penny pitching airline ,

We should all go into CONTRACT COMPLIANCE .

I really think the Management and the Union ( if you could call them that ) , has really underestimated the moral and the hatred of how we are being treated , i really hope it comes back to screw them over , like they have done to us over the last couple of years

There is a very simple formula to follow: first, all pilots commit to support ANY pilot that is victimised when contract compliance starts. If ANY pilot is fired, then ALL pilots stop work immediately. No work commences until ANY and ALL victimised pilots are back at work. If the company knew we were serious in this, then any action we take will be VERY effective. Work on a resolution of mutual support. Once that is in place, our power to shift the debate in our favour is immense.

Well done the DPA, nice to see some balls.

I got slagged off for posting against the AOA and this is a classic reason why I did not join, because the AOA are a waste of time and money.

Now if CX had an association like the DPA I would join. ST, pull your finger out.


Again, well done to the Dragon guys and enjoy your payrise this Christmas.

Just like the 49ers.


What a joke.:ugh:

No Badairsucker...you and your attitude are the joke. Sad little man....

Quote Badairsucker: "I got slagged off for posting against the AOA and this is a classic reason why I did not join, because the AOA are a waste of time and money."

The reason the DPA are so strong is because they have about 85% membership. The AOA go to the company and the company say "Why should we listen to you -you only represent half the work force".

Yeap, I agree, Good work DPA,

Apple tree yard,

You don't like my attitude because it does not fall in line with what you believe in. Get over it. Even your AOA members have had enough, try reading some more threads on here, then you will see.


Dan,
What was the percentage pre 49ers????


I will not reply anymore regarding the AOA as this thread is about the KA pay rise, not the AOA.


Again, well done DPA.:ok:

CX Payrise
 

One would think that, seeing as come January 08, and as a result of some sterling negotiating skills and some nifty acquiescing, the senior members of the AOA GC will have handed the Company;

• a cheaper entry-level workforce by aquiescing to lesser conditions for New Joiners, (yes, they have sold their prospective colleagues down the road yet again!!!),
• continuing supply of checker and trainers by allowing an unfettered application of a retirement age increase to 65, (even though junior officers could get severely dumped on in case of industry slowdown as a result),

(...in other words, having given the Company everything that they wanted from the AOA under CoS08, even in this unprecedented time of aircrew shortage...), that the Company would be falling over themselves to reward the boys by awarding a significant payrise to Cathay aircrew...

No? I wouldn't have characterised the imposed pay rise in return for shafting our junior colleagues 'significant' - anyone else care to comment?

I wonder what the AOA strategy actually is then?

There does appear to be another strategy that doesn't involve selling future colleagues down the road, constant appeasement, kow-towing, manipulation of the outcome of memberships votes, and sounding more like management than management themselves.

DPA have shown the way.

Perhaps we would do well to persuade our Dragon brethren to allow us to merge the respective associations so that some of their more productive negotiating strategies could be adopted. It would also probably do wonders for our association membership which is clearly languishing, (I wonder why...?!).

Well done DPA.

What tha!!
 

Badair, you have a go at the AoA but congratulate the DPA for having balls. Those balls have 85% membership behind them, hence their strength. Also, pilots walking will speak louder than any pilots whinging and Dragon have had their fair share of pilots voting with their feet, well done to them!!
It is very simple, 85% membership and pilots walking= results!!!
You can sit back and bag the union all you want but:
50% membership and no-one walking=CX calling the shots!!!

Badair
 

Well done the DPA. and their pilots. Badair once again mouths it off about balls and the AOA etc etc. while he does nothing but whinge. I am in the AOA and stand ready to act when and if called. Badair you are like the 15% not in the DPA that reap all the benefits that the guys in the DPA (with balls) have achieved. As you are not in a union please don't congratulate the guys that are...you make me sick and to think you may be the head of a family. I suggest you grow some balls and get involved with the AOA so we can have 100% membership and get ready to take the company on.

Heard tw was thinking about leaving but he's decided to stay because of the pay offer!

Fen, Pan, ATY.


Am I correct in saying that if you are a member of the AOA you have balls and if you choose not to join you don't have balls??????Not a very mature case for encouraging new members is it!


I am a member of the AOA and find it quite funny that you think that if we had a larger percentage of members we would progress with talks/action etc.
I for one feel that even with 100% we would not achieve as much as you think we would. We need a change at the top. Not only that, the company will always do what they want, 49ers anyone. Many members are dissatisfied with the running of the AOA not just the membership numbers.

This is of course just my humble opinion so please feel free to make some fantastically funny remark about balls etc.......

I have to concur with the skycruiser's post.

The dragon guys and gals deserve every cent of that payrise, well done all. And kudos to the DPA for sticking to the agenda.

I'm also a member of the AOA, i haven't any intention of giving that up either but it's becoming rather difficult to convince others why they should join. I believe in influencing by example but increasingly the example I'm setting as an AOA member is becoming a joke. I pay a % of my salary to a cause that is yielding squat. Right now could potentially be its finest hour. I'm disappointed to not even see a statement of support for the FAUs movement come out of the AOA. :yuk:

Despite my misgivings I have no doubt that the GC are working on trying to resolve issues but the lack of updates, information and transparency is mystifying and defies logic. So balancing-scale wise there are many more reasons why I shouldn't be a member but I persist in the hope that maybe one day someone either in the GC or new to it will actually wake up from the opium cloud & show some direly needed leadership in the right direction. Decide for yourself what's more stupid......feeding money into a seemingly black hole organisation, or trying to convince/deluding myself into thinking that our GC will fight for us at the risk of losing their jobs. Despite the odds I still believe in trying for change and at the moment I can afford to.

Everyone needs to get off their high horse and stop blaming the other side for the failure of the CPA pilot body in achieving better Ts&Cs. People are entitled to their opinion but when it starts to create a stalemate then the outcome is pretty obvious. It's no wonder everyone has a sore arse and is wondering why the hell nothing's getting done.

malluh lite
 

Well said mullah...

You KA guys still get that 3 year retention bonus thingy or did that get negotiated out??

Payrise and beyond
 

A huge 'Well done' to the DPA :D for keeping up the pressure; however, let's not forget that many people said that the issues weren't just about the money, but that many other issues had to be addressed in order to 'fix' the problem.

The payrise is obviously a morale boost but it will only be a temporary boost if nothing is achieved on the rostering front.

What with the 'demise of the Classic', it's my hope that this short term payrise for the Flight Engineers hasn't gone unnoticed and that there might be some longer term prospects in hand to upgrade some of them to the right-hand seat... if that's their wish.

To the DPA... continue with your efforts to bring about 'change' to the CoS and that you remain sure-footed in your direction.

Once again; great work guys :ok:.

TCF

Shop Steward

Definitely no thread drift there, but in homage to its title I'll say it again, well done the DPA.

Re your response, it actually highlights the lack of awareness the GC is disseminating amongst the AOA body, I didn't know 2 of the guys had quit until I read your post. Is it just me who thinks that things like that are useful to know and should be posted on the AOA website? Those two guys might be some of the two that I definitely wanted on the GC and voted for on the last round.

Clearly I need to edumacate myself a little more about the GC structure, I was always under the impression that each of the members had equal weighting in implementing their opinion, didn't realise that it was chauffeured by a select few. Thanks for updating me. A little less ignorance on my part will help me make more informed decisions.

AOA GC, if any of you are reading this, I appreciate that your positions may seem thankless and I commend you all for putting yourselves on the radar. But as our helmsmen I also think it's about high time you guys started to trust the intentions and honour the consensus of the majority of your supporters, going the other way would make you no less different than CX management.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I have just compared the new KA payscales with the CX scales starting in January. The KA scales are still less than CX scales, so why all the cheering? If the KA scales had been 15% better than projected CX scales then we would have had something to cheer. Instead, CX management can use the broad smiles at KA to tell us in CX how well off we are and that we should be grateful. Am I missing something?:confused

The DPA get a double figure pay rise and, as is stated in the subject of this thread, consider it an "average" increase. The AOA get their members a big fat ZERO percent increase, and still have the support of their sheepish membership.

Its no wonder why we havent gotten an increase. The AOA GC is defunct. The AOA members are all like battered wives; they keep taking the abuse and justify it by hoping it will change one day, the GC ignore my well-being cause they love me and are looking out for my best interest...

Maybe the DPA could set up a Battered AOA Member(BAM) Shelter and counsel them on standing up for themselves. Reminding them that they pay the GC not to beat the membership down, but to advance it.

Vote with your feet AOA lemmings...but dont leave CX, thats not whats broken...leave the AOA, or practice saying "thank you sir, may I have another".

AOA NO WAY, DPA A-OK! :ok:

Hawkeye,

In all honesty, did you ever think KA pilots would be ever earning more than CX pilots?? I believe the original aim of the DPA was to match KA B scale with CX B scale. Not quite there, but a huge improvement from the original offer a few months ago (which by the way ammounted to a pay cut - yes that's true).

Well done DPA, and what a refreshing change in the 'can do' way of thinking for some of the newer members of KA management.

b.

First and foremost congrats to the KA boys. You guys deserve it. KA is not the best airline in the world and you work most of the month.

As for the boys at CX we have a union that right now are sitting on their hands watching the world spin around. I anticipate a decline in membership over the next 6 months unless changes in attitude from the GC will take place. Sure its easy to blame the AoA - but who else are we to blame. Its seems they are doing NOTHING at all. NOTHING.
It seems to me the only light at the end of the tunnel is the fact that guys are walking away and that CX are unable to man the jets. Its only a matter of time before somebody higher up in the system will start to ask questions like; why there are airworthy 744s parked on the ground? The one to answer that ? can only bull**** for that long. Changes will come - one way or the other. Unfortunately my faith in the AoA is not there.

It really seems to me that CX have accepted that they are going to have to merge the Dragonair and CX pilots. If they are all on the same salaries (or similar) they are half way there.

I guarantee you all won't be applauding Dragonair if CX puts some above you on the seniority list. Despite the complainants on PPRuNe they do not represent the majority of comms that the AOA gets from members and shouting or abusing people or CX gets you nowhere.

B-scaler has had many dialogues with the AOA but did not stand for the GC despite his avowed aims. I suspect he prefers to pass comment at his convenience rather than get involved in all aspects of GC membership. Unfortunately this reflects the majority of CX pilots and the possibility of 100% support for a dismissed individual or CC is laughable so why threaten it.

Points made on PPRuNe are very much taken on board despite what you may think and a number of claims on here are 100% incorrect. If members raised their queries with the AOA I'd be very surprised if they do not get an answer.:bored:

KA pilots got a reasonable payrise for a number of reasons.
In no particular order
1) Contract compliance- despite TW fobbing cc off , it was admitted at times that it was causing havoc with the operation.
2) 85% membership and strong leadership of the DPA
3) Guys fed up with the lifestyle and voting with their feet (thank you, although sorry to see many of you go)
4)All that was written on PPrune (and the SCMP)!!! I'm certain this helped to reduce the number of new applicants, the SCMP was the Catalyst in removing TW
5) I understand it was observed by the new CX guys we have over here, that we are united on how and what things needed improving. We weren't bitch slapping each other (take a look at this thread:=)
This offer still has to be voted on, it has many shortfalls and a few too many promises that things will be looked into ie roster agreements, child education allowances etc, but it's a good start.


Thanks John, Angus and the rest of the DPAC
FX

Busy B,
I don't agree that not standing for the GC negates your right to complain. Extending that argument I would not be able to complain about any person that influences my life - from CX management to politicians - because I have never asked to be in those positions. B scaler has a right to complain and he does so lucidly unlike some logic challenged posters.

IluvPX and bad air sucker - I feel your logic is flawed. You want to join a winning union - go to the US then and join an airline there. If you choose to stay in CX I can guarantee you one thing....without a union, we get nothing. With a union we 'might' get something.

CX shop steward - on the money. AOA leadership is currently running its own agenda that conflicts with the majority of the GC. Maybe the 3 vacant positions will attract some people who will like the current policy of 'sit back, do nothing and let the 3% payrises roll in'.

My heartfelt and sincere congratulations to DPA.

Just shows what a bit of perseverance and dedication can achieve.

A good example to pilot associations the world over.

V

Its nice to hope for something NC, but you got either your facts or your "tense" wrong:

1. With a union(AOA), we got nothing(0%).
2. Without the union(AOA), we at least got something(3%)

iluvPX
 

The AOA GC rejected 6% (3% x 2 years) and up to 4% in HDP (2% prorata and 2% 56hrs+). CX imposed 3% and 2% 56hr+ HDP.

So strictly speaking you are correct - the AOA got us nothing. How that justifies non membership as the right path is still beyond me. Still, I guess you will tell me the 15% non DPA members got them their payrise too!?

NC,

"current policy of 'sit back, do nothing and let the 3% payrises roll in'."

Should I take this personally? I don't think thats true although the pace is frustrating for a number of reasons, not all GC induced.

I don't have any problem with people complaining, thats something the AOA expects to field. I do feel that those who treat it as a vocation should follow up and do some work.

In the UK there is a comedian who as a figure of fun spends his time saying
"you don't do it like that, do it like this" and never does anything:}

Hiya BusyB,
my criticism is directed at the "aoa leadership"! I know what the majority of the GC want to do and I agree with it. I resigned because the leadership is no longer democratic, but autocratic. I think it is fair to say that our Pres/VPs have a strict policy of doing nothing but wait. Unless things have changed since I left???
cheers

Think package not pay
 

By my reckoning the KA package when you include travel fund and other benefits is now worth more than CX's. Anyone care to enlighten me please.

KA vs CX
 

On salary alone you would be 42% ahead of CX in accumulated earnings after 10 years - that is around $3.4million HKD. After 20 years you would be 26% ahead of CX which equates to $5.6million HKD. This is based on 5 years to command in KA and 13 for CX - the KA assumption is purely a guess as who knows what will happen now we work for the same employers.

Their salary package is within 2.7% of the CX package for CNs and 1.4% for FOs, if you actually achieve 84credit hrs in CX. If you do around 56 hrs then the KA package is slightly ahead for FOs and about even for captains.

KA do get a travel allowance but their bonus scheme I think is a little shy of our 15.5% PF - could someone from KA please enlighten us as to your bonus scheme?


Good to see the KA package 'improved' to the same levels as existed in CX in 1992.