Joining Dragonair? This is how it is now
 

If you are one of the fifty (so they say) something hopefuls being interviewed in the UK for Dragonair, then you might like to consider some things that I have experienced in my time here in Hong Kong. Whether you are considering the Manchester base, or Hong Kong, the same applies.



We as crew are been right royally rodgered at the moment, from every angle and seemingly unstoppable barrage of negativity and disregard to what is ostensibly a very loyal work force. Everybody who makes the move to Dragonair will have a reasonable amount of experience and professionalism, earned from years spent with previous companies. Nobody relocates to Hong Kong with any intention other than do their best whether professionally or socially. That’s what any self respecting human being would expect and would presume that kind would be met with kind. Dragonair was a company that was an accommodating place to be, but like milk left out too long in the mid-day sun; this place has turned, become sour and not pleasant to be around.



Gone are the days when a roster would be flexible to give you some time off with your family. Day off requests for consecutive days is rarely entertained by the ever increasingly abrasive rostering department. Want that weekend off with your daughter for her 10th birthday in 4 months time, to attend your best mates wedding, to go in a sailing regatta or study an evening course then chances are you will be disappointed. Statistically, you will work 5 or 6 days, landing at between 9-10pm before an off day then commencing duty on an early after your statutory 2 days off. Do expect 2 days off per week, but no more. Don’t think that the system might be better for you because you smile nicely at the girls, it won’t.



Gone are the days when you felt part of the company and individuals were motivated to go the extra distance. Quite frankly history has taught most guys that corporate memories are short, and why try to help out, when you may get bitten. What about 3 years ago when employees were “asked” to taken one months unpaid leave to help the company out, to be told 3 months later, post SARS crisis, that despite record revenue, you wouldn’t be getting anything back. We have expansion they said, and after all you are loyal employees, expatriates so we can shaft you. What are you going to do they infer, strike ha-ha. Even our “brothers” across the road, with there post 49er hangovers, we rewarded for helping out in a time of need.



Gone are the times of approachable management and helpful and friendly corporate culture. When dealing with the locally staffed personnel department, while trying to get help say for example with a rental contract, be under no illusions that you are considered to be an overpaid accessory. They are quite frank and blunt, and rather than helping you, will generally recommend you sort out your problems in your time. We are too busy. Of course this attitude percolates down from middle management, who are bitter little men and women, of limited abilities clinging onto the slippery corporate pole of annual assessments. It feels that their agenda is agitating their expatriate colleagues.



Gone are the days that the remuneration made putting up with all this hostility worth while. Dragonair crew has not had a pay rise for 7 years. Inflation is 2.5%, tax has risen to 17%. House and flat, rentals have risen by as much as 40% in the last two years. The General Manager operations have stated that pilots are better off than 5 years ago. A First Officer starts on £37000 (HK$57000) now, sure that’s really a lot when you pay 10 $US a beer in town. Sarcasm isn’t funny. There will be no raises. The local economy is booming. Even the government has recommended companies look favorably upon raises and bonuses. Only 2% of Hong Kong companies are not considering giving a raise this year. Yes again coming in tops is tight fisted, short sighted Dragonair. But keeping you lean makes you keen right? Keen to leave I think.



Finally, the optimism of last years Cathay buyout is fading fast. Dragonair will be increasingly serving polluted industrialized china with minimal other destinations. Fleet expansion has stagnated, as has command upgrades. The freighter fleet is in disarray. The classics are to be relocated to Hong Kong, to cover regional routes, while the -400s are to go to Manchester. Several pilots have taken a Hong Kong reporting option, they have been left in limbo by our ever so helpfully inept flt ops management “team”. The fleet is now managed by Cathay freight, under CX call signs. But be under no illusions, this will never be an easy back door in to Cx. With Ka salaries a good 20% below their Cx counterparts, not to mention rental allowances, there are not enough synergies that could be obtained by amalgamation. You will be second fiddle to Cx pilots, always.



Of course at the end of the day if you don’t mind been bitter and twisted, grind your axe daily and loose some of the old grey matter then carry on, it worked for me.

wow.....

That is shocking. £37000 ? is that for an f/o? How do they get experienced people.:confused:

The Hidden's account of Dragonair these days is spot on unfortunately.

Only good for a free of charge type rating I'm afraid. 5- 8 years to a command by which time it will be on a mainland China salary scale. Pollution killing your kids, nasty letters for being 3 minutes late to work & a management style that makes the military of the 60's look modern.

For those being interviewed, if you ask the hard questions, the interviewers will falter. Don't let them fool you, it is you interviewing them, not the other way around.

That is of course if anyone bothers to turn up.

re: the hidden
 

Although a fairly accurate account of the current state at Dragonair, I'd like to add my 2 cent worth:

1. % of days off request entertained for April ranged from 60 - 85% depending on fleet.

2. Monthly Remuneration 1st Yr F/O. HK57,000, plus Housing (either Rental or House Purchasing Scheme, child education for up to 3 children, and the travel fund to your domicile.

There's 13 month, bonus (albeit little) and 15% gratuity after 3 years.

3. New routes since CX takeover, Busan in Korea and reinstatement of Phuket. We've lost Bangkok though.

4. Priority 29 at the moment. No ID90 business on CX. One World employees are on priority 28. Even though we're a wholly owned CX subsidiary we'd be bumped off by any of One World Carrier employee. Hmmm, so much for that 'synergy' talk they go on about and that 'Dare to Care' slogan from Personnel!

What about the KA cargo ex man, do they get £37000 as well and do they get housing allowance or something similar?

I understand the cargo crew is a great bunch, and I suppose not beeing based in hkg would make a big difference, or am I wrong in thinking that?

I think people should seriously have a good look at joining Oasis.

Why? Oasis make people pay for the conversion course :=

Most of the companies where I come from that asked pilots to pay for their training ended up going bust....If they can't or won't afford training, it makes you think...

'Oasis make people pay for the conversion course'

Yep, Dragonair & Cx are paying at the moment!

I understand that anyone joining KA will have about an 8-10 year wait for a command.
Given that any new joiner has approx 200 in front of them and only "modest expansion" even that figure would seem generous.
It seems the early command has well and truly gone and CX would seem a much better long term proposition now.

Any chance of amalgamation between the two?

I think KA will be almalgamated into oblivion!!!

Not a good place to work. EVERYONE you fly with are un-happy + miserable. Complaining about:

Rosters
Management
Rosters
Management
-400 Package
Rosters
Hotels
Crew Transport
Leave
Pollution
Why is no one leaving?
etc......


:{

Anyone got anything positive to say about KA??? :ugh:

It's Positively Rubbish!

:mad:

HKG Phooey,

I think you are asking the right question. Why arent people leaving? Morale is low, that appears obvious from your post, but where is it high? Not Cathay, Qantas, BA, or United, so the legacy carriers are out. Who has the best package? Is the package important anymore, or is morale and lifestyle rosters worth more than money? I am just expanding on the question you have asked, not having a personal dig.

How about the LCC's? Oasis might have good morale because everyone is still in honeymoon mode, but that doesnt last, it wont be long before they start to feel like the lowest paid 400 drivers on the pax side of the airport. That will come, its human nature, or pilot nature, a matter of time.

Not sure where home is for you, but Jetstar, virgin, freedom, ryanair, easyjet, jet blue, virgin nigeria, is that where the action is? I'm not sure either. I think people arent leaving because the problems at dragon, are not just isolated to KA, they are industry wide. I am not sure if there is a better deal out there, just the same sh$t different dog, and management know it. Hence no pay rise, no rostering agreement, just a token offer of part time work, to show the new bosses that they are prepared to talk to the pilots, and pretending to try and make peace to get rid of that embarrasing pesky ban. No doubt the new boss is pressuring Tim to make it go away. Why else has he only just started to talk to the pilots now?

The reality is, there isnt a rostering program on earth that can make a legal roster with the increased schedule CX want KA to fly, they dont have enough pilots to cover their current schedule. There must be lots of pressure to make this ban go away. I know the ban is on the 400, and not the airbus, but there are alot of pilots that arent applying to KA incase they are offered the 400. There are too many other jobs out there for guys with the experience level that ka has traditionally tried to attract, to want to get caught up in an industrial mess. CX can only give KA so many cadets to fill the seats, they are short of crew too.

The only answer for the management is to get more pilots. The only way that will happen smoothly, is to negotiate a lifting of the pesky ban. Sit tight, who knows? I think KA might see a few positive changes.... :)

But if the real issue is pollution, that aint going to get any better in our life time. :( If the Amazon forrest is known as the lungs of the earth, this place (China and Hong Kong) has surely got to be the ar$ehole. :sad:

Hasn't the Ban been lifted?

26-03-2007

TO: PROSPECTIVE DRAGONAIR PILOTS

The DPA, representing the majority of Dragonair's pilots, has successfully concluded an agreement with management, whereby the rights to fly Dragonair aircraft under existing, agreed-to contracts, have been re-confirmed.

It has taken a long time, and the DPA would like to thank the many pilots who, by respecting the ban, have assisted our efforts to protect our legal contracts.

Now, we are happy to announce that the IFALPA-sponsored ban on recruitment for Dragonair's new fleet of B747-400 freighters is officially withdrawn, and we once again welcome interest in these positions.

It is the DPA's understanding that for the foreseeable future, Dragonair intends to recruit crews onto the B744F into our Manchester base, subject to our existing 2001 Flight Crew Services contract.

Yours sincerely,

Captain Andrew Mackinlay
On behalf of the DPA

Thanks Bill,

Good news for prospective employees, as long as they know it has been dropped. :)

Maybe more candidates will turn up to the next round of interviews.

If the Amazon forrest is known as the lungs of the earth, this place (China and Hong Kong) has surely got to be the ar$ehole.



I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry over this. A poignant statement nonetheless.

b.

Is his wife any good?

Mwaaaaaaahahahahhahahaha Lol ;-)))

Hmm, this is getting really difficult now...
I must say I didn't apply due to the ban, but now it's been lifted I'm looking to go for the MCT job. But reading all the negativity is not doing much for my spirit. Is it just the HKG base that's miserable, or does this negativity exist in the UK as well?

Maybe I should just go take a plumbing course...

BigL

As Vermin has suggested, go along to the interview and ask some hard questions, their replies should tell you all you need to know.

The problems highlighted above all exist at the Manchester base. We share the same management, the crappy rosters, the indifference to our lifestyle, fatigue and day to day shambles that emerges from crew control.

No pay rise for 6 years, not even cost of living currently running at 4.5% annually in the UK. Down route allowances have only gone down in that time. £450 a year to park your car at work! Rosters getting worse.

I could go on and on but it's all been said before. Think very carefully before taking any job with KA.

Well I'm with FR at the moment so I don't think management can get any worse, but thanks for the info! (that's the prime reason why I'm desperatly needing to change jobs)
It's a shame really, not many good companies out there.

Joebanana, what's the problem wiht rostering? That is for me a make or break thing as I'd be commuting...
(And don't say no flexibility coz where I am now there is NONE, that word doesn't even exist. As an example I just had ALL my annual leave requests denied for the whole year coming!)

This says itall i'm afraid! But if the real issue is pollution, that aint going to get any better in our life time. If the Amazon forrest is known as the lungs of the earth, this place (China and Hong Kong) has surely got to be the ar$ehole.:eek:
:*
Many times while decending into the arsehole of china 8/10 times you will get calls from the cabin stating there is a electricail burning smell back here? You look at the Alitimeter to Realize that you have just decented into the welcomeing home blanket of dirty **** sulphur smelling gases popping up the Airconditioing sysytem and this is around 16,000ft or so.

Beautiful, just Beautiful and they're still trying to use the pull the wool over there eyes with the aurgument of saying that thigs are just as good as they were ten years ago..... I would hope that senior captains here will finally see the light and piss off and get some major contract to forfill there last years in aviation.

This place, make no mistake is a **** hole to fly into.:* :D

What's wrong with rostering?
 

BigL,

I could spend all day on this but I'll try to keep it brief.

The rostering is bordering on the negligent and from a business point of view is totally illogical. We are often away on 12 day duty cycles but end up flying 3 or 4 times, the rest of the time we are on standby (often when there isn't a departure) in crap hotels in HKG and DXB or simply waiting for yet another delayed aircraft. The number of roster changes during a cycle has to be seen to be believed!

No account whatsoever is taken of circadian disruption or the fatigue associated with an East-West route structure. If you haven't flown long haul before then the fatigue is very different to the fatigue associated with multi-sector days. You will often go days without sleeping more than a couple of hours at a time.

Any suggestions to improve the efficiency of the roster are routinely ignored. There is no desire to consider any lifestyle concerns and it seems that the rostering staff would rather give you maximum number of days away rather than compacting duty cycles - for flexibility!!!

I've been here for several years and we have always been short of crew for the style of rostering. 'We're recruiting' is the constant answer but we have not once been able to produce a roster with the right number of crews. This impacts on both the rostering stage and the day to day operations. Bizarre roster patterns emerge and any sickness or disruption has a massive knock on effect that causes chaos for days on end.

I know that FR is an equally poor place to be and initially KA may appear to be a reasonable place to be, if only because it's a change. You will very soon find out that rostering is a shambles, management inept, and pay inadequate. Did anybody mention the screw-up about UK tax?

If you want to leave FR (and I can't blame you!) then think carefully before coming to KA, there are more attractive options elsewhere.

Its a tosspot managed sh1thole. Really don't bother leaving FR.

Shambles
 

Its a friggin shambles. Last week a Captain was sent on Emirates full fare DXB-MAN because they were short a crew there, however they couldn't find an FO so they cancelled the flight and sent the Captain back to DXB on Emirates again. (Pointless positioning is not unusual).
If you enjoy wasting your time away in hotel rooms that stink of stale piss (Novotel DXB) then this is the place for you. You can't go anywhere in DXB because the traffic is so bad it takes an age to get anywhere.
If you're a Ryan man then why not try Sqeezy jet in Belfast and earn more than you will at KA. It is a thrill to fly the big Jumbo bwana for a while but that soon wears thin.
Good Luck!

So after UK tax how much would a FO take home?

Sad but true
 

As a long time employee of KA I can attest that the good days are gone. While there is some embellishment in some of the above posts, there are many not far from the truth. I would have left by now except that it is difficult to find a position as a Direct Entry Commander that suits my family. The same situation exists for others so that possibly explains why so few crews have left. Legacy carriers are certainly not the preferred option for anyone here as they join so far down the list that even 5 yrs to command here seems worth it. Given what I know now, I would have to say go to that legacy carrier, and enjoy your lifestyle while there. You cannot enjoy HKG lifestyle unless you spend the majority of your income, and if you intend to do that, why bother coming here in the first place.

Just for those that are still interested in KA, a monthly roster will have you away from home for around 280-300 hrs with around 10 days home in HKG.
The cost of living has risen considerably in the past 3 yers however there has been no pay rise in 6. It is even worse for the MAN based chaps who now need to pay UK taxes and are on only a 10% bonus (which is fully taxable).
The basic cost of living in HKG is around double to triple what you may used to. In summer you can expect utility costs around $3000HK per month while you run the aircons, and you have to!
Most food is imported so unless you wish to eat noodles and chinese greens a weekly spend at the supermarket for a family of four is around $5000HK.
Education costs are expensive. True they are subsidised but only to a certain level. Luckily I am past it but I hear that others are paying around $2000Hk per month (after allowances) per child.
True that you dont need a car if you live in HK and that the public transport system is second to none. However if you decide to live outside the MTR zones, as many do, then a car is essential. Cost of fuel is around $13 per litre. Add tollway roads and parking costs and a daily trip to work costs around $300HK.

For those considering coming here I would have to say that given an option of either KA or CX - take CX. CX are the masters and will ensure that CX prospers while KA withers. The KA brand will be around for another 5 years or so and then the real fight to keep or improve conditions will be fought. Luckily I shall be gone by then.

Have a drink on me!
Drunkenair.

This thread makes for very worrying reading to the prospective KA pilot(in particular Man base).
I knew things were bad in there but didn't think it was that bad !
Am in the recruitment process at the moment and don't like what I'm reading here.
Any way,Thanks all for the heads up,its all good information :ok: :ok:

For someone joining now would it would be unreasonable to expect a command inside of 7 years ( manager's words ).

This would be subject to an expansion by Cathay that isn't guarranteed.

Something else not factored here is that in that time frame there will be a lot of locals ready for upgrading too.

Is it fair to say command prospects at Dragonair bleak and uncertain?
You will go backwards on a KA first officers wage living in Hong Kong for a long period. This with consideration to the resistance to any much needed payrise and what you get paid now is what they will want to pay you in a decade!

Q-Pot you have a PM

Wow! KA has certainly gone downhill since I left in '99. It was showing signs of going that way then but this is bad!

In a way it is not that surprising. With a 'yes' man for GMO, who had dubious competency for the position, and a Personnel Manager who was very anti pilots I can see how it happened.

A/C Orders
 

Aside a few freighters, does KA have any aircraft on order? I haven't heard of any to replace those that leave as operating leases expire. I would say command prospects - absent a major new order - look dim.

Milly

A330??
 

When does the A330 arrive? Was that a very recent order? No mention in the company AR of any more A330 deliveries. Perhaps on the way back from Air China? Thought they were leased wet, with crews?

Milly

Been reading this topic and am unpleasantly suprised. Going for an interview for KA next week. I wonder what they will tell me. If it is as bad as people say here, they wil never find the people. On the other hand they might do, since there are always people who accept sh*t for low salaries.

No more A330
 

There will be no new A330 for KA. There are 2 A330 doing wetlease for Air China but they are wetleased with crew. They will be returned within the next year.
I see no reason to join KA. As a captain here you can save money but as an FO with family- no way. I would say 5-7 years for command.
The negative aspects of the job I would list as
Roster, Nightstops,route network, management and HK pollution
Positive
Leave system and a good chance to see Asia on your leave.
As there are no expansion plans I wouldn't come here for now.

You see the problem isn't that there are lots of people who are willing to accept the sh*t for less money. If I compare the situation some of you are describing at KA to my own company, I would get the same sh*t I have now, except that I would get three times as much money for it at KA... All of the sudden that sounds like a very tempting scenario...

Thanks everyone for getting to the root with all this.
But as someone said, "stay at FR", is not an option. It's so bad here just now I'm not even gonna start. But the good-list that Ka-life listed can all be put under bad...
The problem is salary, sure there might be some good places to go to, but to go from a command salary to 1st year F/O say in Virgin is a BIG drop. So there's only a few places that will pay enough to even be considered...
Some of the really good places only take rated pilots, so how long is the bond in KA? I'm thinking maybe getting a rating, then leaving when time's up...
EZY, nah. Gotta get out of this Low cost swamp...

Money is soooo bad..... Guess everyone else pays soooo much more right??? Lotsa bad things, but money.... Not one of them as far as I and a lot of others are concerned...

That's why noone is leaving..... START LEAVING!!!!!!