Mass Resignation from KA
 

Heard the other day from several sources, that due to the great rise in property prices in the last year, that 40 or so pilots from KA are going to take the money and RUN. Fed up with miss-management and aweful rosters, they have had enough...

Bout time!!

Why, you looking for a job?

If you know anything about aviation in HK or Asia for that matter, it won't make the slightest difference to management.:(

I don't think the number is 40. Six to eight have interviews with Singapore Airlines and a few more paying lip service. A number of aviators have stormed upstairs threatening resignation, only to look ridiculous to themselves and their colleagues when they quickly rescind.

Money talks. Property in HKG has gone up but even so, the KA gig is still a good deal financially and very difficult to top.

Crap rostering. Crap training – especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees. Low tech flight operations that make some regional carriers look good. Rudderless ship syndrome – where is the management. These are some issues that tempt people to leave and result in rock bottom morale but as long as ransom is being paid, very few will leave.

Now as for customers abandoning KA, that’s a different story.

Every KA pilot who has been treated badly has a story to tell. What I find so interesting is that KA management are prepared to lose pilots when flying in China has quite a large requirement for local knowledge. To be prepared to lose pilots who have some considerable experience in flying in China is short sighted and irresponsible.

"especially when it comes to the sink or swim approach of providing no assistance to command trainees".

An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for. In very large enterprises this is a small problem as they have both time and resources to work their whey through this situation and "deferred success" can still be addressed within the same budget.

In smaller organisations , where you have both time and budget constraints, you have less time to manoeuvre and so set standards that you hope will ensure that those selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'.

Command Training then starts after the individual has shown themselves ready for Command. Command ability cannot be taught in any kind of worthwhile command course, you cannot be taught to 'Command', you can be taught how you can best direct your innate command ability.

Slightly off topic, BUT...
I see in todays SCMP, Stanley Hui (CEO) is coming up with more reasons for Dragonair's poor performance.
Admittedly Dragon has had a tough Summer, with ATC delays in PVG, rotten Wx and high fuel prices to name a few, but why will he not accept that he is runnng a company that has the infrastructure in place to take advantage of the huge potential in F E Asia, and yet we are wet leasing aircraft to other companies because we have surplus planes and crews!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are we not using these to develop our own routes... As I've said before, where is the initiative and leadership.
Fx

Blue Eagle – you said “An initial part of command assessment is establishing if the individual has the qualities you are looking for”

In KA’s case, PCE (pre command evaluation) and PCW (pre command workshop) has already taken care of assessing a candidates command ability prior to undertaking command training.

You also said “selected will achieve the required standard at the first or second 'hit'”
In KA, there is no second hit. A single bad day in the sim at the end of an expensive and time consuming command course will result in being sin binned for 12 months. No second chances.

Despite the fact that KA employs generally very experienced pilots they still have an appalling failure rate that should embarrass the checking and training staff no end. But they appear to view such a failure rate as a success – the more that fail the better the system is.

You would think a company like KA would have enough of an idea how you would fare as a captain, just by looking at your training and recurrent history.
KA isn't the only airline in Hong Kong that likes to train their prospective captains this way... But it's getting better.

Just a small point Fx Boa, Ka may have the equipment but they don't have the human infrastructure required to take advantage of the regional potential. While accountants run around working out how to save $20 here & there, no one looks at market opportunities. Replacing the accountants with experienced marketing/ buisness professionals would be a step in the right direction. The daily stuff ups from the Ioc are comical. Its a little frightening if our Ceo really believes its simply Wx & Atc upsetting the bottom line. Having both flight & cabin crew actively working against the airline & ops staff with no training (but very impressive computer screens) surely contributes.

Unfortunately CA flying is just an easy way out as the work came to Ka, 2 year wet leases suggest there is no master plan.

KA is a stepping stone, but unfortunately does not offer a sustainable lifestyle for families. Higher level management arrogance and insensitivity doesn't help either.

Good luck to those who aren't financially conscripted and can leave.

Blue Eagle, I am saddened to hear you believe that Command cannot be taught.

I believe the innate ability to command can't be taught, but obviously command technique can.

The problems listed here are valid and accurate.

Housing is expensive, with allowances not keeping pace, an adversarial attitude in Mgmt and training, no "coaching" or support for the Command Candidate - one strike and you're out is the rule. An unwillingness to embrace the knowledge that is built up in the senior Pilot group and use it to the company's advantage. The "rule through fear and intimidation" is more in keeping with a 1970's era British Coal mine than an Airline operating in one of the more trying environments and airspace...

In short the lack of "People Skills" - a command trait I'm sure Blue Eagle will recognize - is sadly lacking in all area's of Mgmt.

In my time at KA I witnessed this and found Mgmt wanting in every respect...

Singletrackbullit
 

Who do you think you are trying to start a mud slinging match about my company, it's management and our rosters!!

I would bet that you don't know anything about all of the above.

You're either a private pilot OR Dragonair knocked you back!!:*

Well said FO, he registered just to start this thread and has been given quite enough bandwidth. Somethings need sorting out but the money rolls in OK; I just does me job and goes home.

It is true that KA seems to be seriously lacking direction from management at the moment. At a time when all other airlines in the region are expanding, the company seems to be struggling to come up fresh ideas beyond increasing the frequency to Beijing and Shanghai. Communication from above is nonexistent and the perception amongst staff is that the company is a rudderless ship. Local staff are overworked, overstressed and are bailing out in droves.

However, having said that, you have to realise that many of the posters here have their own axes to grind and are less than objective. For example, perhaps some of the negative posters above can tell us whether they have ever attempted a command course at KA, and how it went…

Hi,

Just registered to give my 2 cents.
Morale is at an all time low. not only in flt ops, but the whole company. The catch phrase" if you do not like it you can go" can be heard on every level in KA house.

See KAFO reply, the biggest problem is rostering/scheduling and mgmt inability to correct the situation.
even when managers want to discuss this problem they get nowhere!!

KA

One of the biggest sources of frustration for KA pilots is the crap rostering. And a solution to this has been created by the hard work of the DPA. Those involved in the trial have all said that it's a big improvement. Sadly this does not have support from some senior pilots who feel that they should have better rosters than the rest because they have been at KA longer! If we can get this implemented then our lifestyles will improve dramatically and therefore sickleave will be greatly reduced. For some reason management do not want us to have a more efficient roster even though it would cost the company nothing and give more flexibility with the schedule! This beligerent attitude has had a devistating effect on morale.
One of the attributes of good leadership is to be able to listen to the troops complaints and take action if required. Sadly we don't have good leadership.
I believe that most line pilots are seriously fatigued & have to take sick days in order to recover. Flying into China is by no means a straight forward proposition & the company should be proud of the job that the pilots are doing. Instead our COS are continually attacked and we are ruled with fear & intimidation.
I think management would be very surprised at how many pilots are seriously starting to look elsewhere.

KA is a rudderless barge. I have seen the work being done to try and fix things. The KA response is: "it ain't broke!" you can all summise and hypothesize that everything is OK but it is NOT. Management (apart from the tont meister) are ineffective and are not worthy of respect

Midnight oil – in response to your question – I have not been through the KA command course – my anger towards command training is based on discussion with close friends who have done the course, some passed, a few failed. It is also based on my experience from doing sim training and proficiency checks and gaining an understanding of how the “KA” minds works. It worries me.

KAFO – You accuse a poster of slinging mud in reference to comments regarding our rostering. Last month I was rostered for two 3 day trips back to back giving me under 10 hours stick time over 6 days – a little more than 1.5 hours per day. This is not mud being flung, these are facts.

KA is being managed on a daily basis only as ownership and direction issues are being nutted out behind closed doors, or to put it more bluntly, in a manner that “is none of your business”, as told to our boss recently by a board member.

Time to command in Air Macau is only about 2-3 years now, and cost of living is much lower.

Sadly, I suspect the pay is too (approx GBP40k net for experienced FO and GBP50k-70k net for captains). And our housing allowance hasnt kept pace either.

But although we moan about mgmt, at least the rostering is generally okay....

KAOS without Smart ?
 

KA is absolute CHAOS !!! :}

The guys & gals at the rock face are working themselves into the ground....
Exhausted, unrecognised, threatened and degraded they toil away daily with rising sickness and stress rates!! The professional approach of Cabin Crew & Pilots at KA is astounding in very:mad: difficult conditions and the daily China environment !

A big hand to everyone:ok: for maintaining the safety & standards as the s**t flows down from up on high...........:}

Now that the rumoured Frankfurt wet-lease for Air China is off - one has to ask, what is the plan?

We aren't going to Sydney, or Seoul, or Manila - but we are getting new aircraft all the time. What are they going to do? Trawl backwards and forwards to KHH?

In summary, there appears to be no plan for KA. Sure, we can keep doing what we do now (trawl backwards and forwards to KHH) but that's hardly the hallmark of a successful long term strategy.

It seems to the staff (witness all the previous posts here) that the Company is going nowhere.

The ETOPS project has been for nought.

Delays caused by maintenance seem more common than in years gone by.

Morale (both cockpit and cabin crew) is truly awful. Loyalty to the Company has dissolved to near zero. Poor rosters and the aching problem of an autocratic, remote, out-of-touch and disinterested flight ops management are the corrosive cause.

I am not surprised that many are talking about leaving. I would not recommend that anyone join now. The future is too uncertain and there are too many warning signals now. This company is drifting toward demise.

Or else - it's about to be quietly absorbed into Cathay and/or Air China. Afterall, everything we do these days is for them and nothing we do is for us.

Why would CX want to absorb KA?
Best let it implode and pick up selected bits like the 744's.:ok:

Handing back some leased aircraft next year seems as though they know what's going on....... doesn't it......??

I mean at a time when ALL other airlines in the region are either rapidly expanding or desperate for any aircraft they can get their hands on, KA is sending aircraft back.

All makes sense to me :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

It isn't as much what KA management is not doing, but what the parent company is allowing them to do. A while back it seemed that all was well at KA, and that it was the place to be as the small company that could.

The hardline approach and tough expansion talk from just a couple of years ago has now all but evaporated. Those of Australian descent are surely not happy that the much hyped SYD flights are now mothballed for the forseeable future. This came about coincidentally after the CX/CA cooperation talks. Go figure.

I suppose then that the management themselves also have a problem of trying to keep themselves interested. So the crap does roll downhill. And it seems that a 'number' of KA's management and staff has defected, not to the other airline, but to the new local amusement park. Including some of those who used to work with your rosters...

The funny thing is, from what I've heard, life at that new local amusement park is even worse.

I hear KA will be buying a new rudder by the end of this month, so hopefully things will start pointing the right way again.

As for the local theme park, I hear they are complaining about pay rostering and management, so what is the difference?

Not every manager knows how to manage so don't expect miracles to happen.

Guys getting command training would assuming have had previous command time as they enter the company with a substantial amount of hours. Sometimes the checkers can be unfair but it also depends on the checkee. No free lunch I'm afraid.

BFB ....

Question : Did you pass the interview and going for round 2 ?

I see MLO has resigned. Any story there?

MLO blow out !!
 

Well as he was the only decent bloke doing his job :ok:, it's highly likely that he is suffering from clinical exhaustion and knife wounds to the back, same as the line drivers :} ............

Sad to see one of the good guys lost.

Oz2

Resigned from management or KA? Don't know him that well, but always appears friendly and approachable when I've bumped into him.

Guys,

Could you expand on a little more on why people are leaving dragon air. I have only heard good things about KA.

Also, with so many resignations where are people heading off to? Etihad? Emirates?

Just from management.

Another resigned today for Virgin.

Now, if only more colonials and their antipodean sisters would move on, eh Australia 2.

Follow me,

Thats a bit harsh mate - we're not that bad are we.

Oz2

apparently the reason for all the turmoil is in preperation for the takeover by Cathay/air china which is due in January at which point the A330's and the freighters will join CX and the A320's will be retained by whats left of dragonair but as an LCC operating to China as a feeder for CX....................

have fun guys, should be an interesting bun fight !!!!

Nice wind up attempt Tim er I mean Marcus..woops I mean size matters

gliderboy

Every pilot in KA will be a widebody skipper within 3 years!! (sound familiar to anyone??)

Follow the Follow Me
 

You are making yourself very visible. The line pilot's are right, you would sell your wife, mother to get ahead.

You are a loquacious and pretentious p!@#k and your people are all hoi polloi.:yuk:

Nice wind up??? tim??? Marcus??? thank you for playing but no cigar................

see you in January when you join us here at CX

if your one of the lucky ones that is