Captain downgrade to Second Officer?
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 74
Likes: 7
From: Perth
Captain downgrade to Second Officer?
I saw this article in HKFP.
https://hongkongfp.com/2023/08/13/fu...e-a-dream-job/
It said,
"After flying with Cathay for over 30 years, Ethan, an Australian who also requested to use a pseudonym, resigned as a senior captain in the summer of 2022 to join another airline as a second officer – third in command on the flight deck. It usually takes around 10 years to become a captain, progressing through the ranks from trainee to second officer, first officer, and then captain – of which there are several ranks. But leaving one airline for another often means starting all over again from the bottom.
All Ethan wanted, though, was “a proper contract,” one which he felt fairly reflected his workload and offered stable terms."
I find that hard to believe, a Senior Captain joining another airline and downgrading to a Second Officer? Isn't that position for newbies out of flight school?
https://hongkongfp.com/2023/08/13/fu...e-a-dream-job/
It said,
"After flying with Cathay for over 30 years, Ethan, an Australian who also requested to use a pseudonym, resigned as a senior captain in the summer of 2022 to join another airline as a second officer – third in command on the flight deck. It usually takes around 10 years to become a captain, progressing through the ranks from trainee to second officer, first officer, and then captain – of which there are several ranks. But leaving one airline for another often means starting all over again from the bottom.
All Ethan wanted, though, was “a proper contract,” one which he felt fairly reflected his workload and offered stable terms."
I find that hard to believe, a Senior Captain joining another airline and downgrading to a Second Officer? Isn't that position for newbies out of flight school?
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 68
Likes: 8
From: FL310
Joining a company that has you working under a policy is something a newbie out of flight school might over look. If you have BSJ syndrome and looking to join CX, ask yourself, seriously....Why are Captains, senior FO's and SO's leaving??
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 149
Likes: 11
From: havetocallthereception
We all overlooked it. Turns out we actually never had a durable contract in the first place.
If we had had one, the company could not have annulled it overnight.
If we had had one, the company could not have annulled it overnight.
Last edited by corporal klinger; 24th August 2023 at 10:54.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 319
Likes: 1
From: crewbag
Time to wake up.
We've had hundreds of Captains and Senior First Officers leave the widebodies of CX for Flight Training Academies, regional turboprops, low-cost carriers and ambulance operations. And all chose to start at the bottom again.
That speaks volume to what's become if this misfit.
We've had hundreds of Captains and Senior First Officers leave the widebodies of CX for Flight Training Academies, regional turboprops, low-cost carriers and ambulance operations. And all chose to start at the bottom again.
That speaks volume to what's become if this misfit.
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 192
Likes: 18
From: By the sea
Some back of ciggy packet maths. I've got 58% of captains have left since Jan 2020. Guess they weren't interested in hanging around under an amendable policy arrangement.
Watch this space, majority of 330/350 pilots with a window seat will be 900 hour limited before the end of the year. Standby for 900 upped to 1000 and flight pay threshold upped 9 hours, I hope not, but these people are very predictable.
I know 3 10 year plus captains personally who are now SO's elsewhere, and I'm a recluse. There'll be plenty more.
Watch this space, majority of 330/350 pilots with a window seat will be 900 hour limited before the end of the year. Standby for 900 upped to 1000 and flight pay threshold upped 9 hours, I hope not, but these people are very predictable.
I know 3 10 year plus captains personally who are now SO's elsewhere, and I'm a recluse. There'll be plenty more.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 285
From: Moved beyond
A number of very senior pilots who either lost their jobs or resigned during the pandemic have ended up as junior pilots at other airlines. Many more decided it was all too hard (and quite frankly a slap in the face), and either retired early or found careers in other industries. The airline industry has lost a huge amount of experience as a result. Unfortunately, that's life in an industry where highly trained people are treated like commodities and experience counts for five-eighths of f@#k all if you change employers.
Last edited by BuzzBox; 24th August 2023 at 11:21.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2022
Posts: 74
Likes: 7
From: Perth
It depends on the airline, but most have a strict seniority system where new joiners are hired at the bottom of the seniority list at the most junior rank. If the most junior rank is Second Officer, then that's where all pilots would normally join that airline. Qantas is one such airline.
A number of very senior pilots who either lost their jobs or resigned during the pandemic have ended up as junior pilots at other airlines. Many more decided it was all too hard (and quite frankly a slap in the face), and either retired early or found careers in other industries. The airline industry has lost a huge amount of experience as a result. Unfortunately, that's life in an industry where highly trained people are treated like commodities and experience counts for five-eighths of f@#k all if you change employers.
A number of very senior pilots who either lost their jobs or resigned during the pandemic have ended up as junior pilots at other airlines. Many more decided it was all too hard (and quite frankly a slap in the face), and either retired early or found careers in other industries. The airline industry has lost a huge amount of experience as a result. Unfortunately, that's life in an industry where highly trained people are treated like commodities and experience counts for five-eighths of f@#k all if you change employers.
Joined: Nov 2016
Posts: 589
Likes: 60
From: FLSomething
Wow. I am not an airline pilot. I undersatnd seniority but I thought logically, one should / would join at the most junior of the rank that they currently hold (i.e. most junior Captain). But to kick them down to SO is a little bit rough? I thought that a SO cannot takeoff/land the airplane. So you could have a situation here where your SO on the plane, could be more experienced than the Captain/FO. Or a 15,000 hr SO on par with a guy just out of a cadetship...
Join the day after a cadet, you can flush your 15,000 hours down the toilet.
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 336
Likes: 2
From: Australia
This is why seniority can be so brutal, taking pay and condition cuts at your present airlines vs starting at the bottom again at another airline.
Last edited by Avinthenews; 25th August 2023 at 01:51.
Joined: Mar 2002
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
Posts: 1,374
Likes: 285
From: Moved beyond
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 149
Likes: 11
From: havetocallthereception
Defying logic I agree, but transparent?? If you re-join a certain carrier who cares about the "little things" then you actually might get the choice of fleet, plus your rank, a training position and your old payscale back. And as a bonus you get the chance to fck over your colleagues that endured Covid rules while you spent a few relaxed and comfortable months at home. Sweet.
Last edited by corporal klinger; 25th August 2023 at 04:35.
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 23
Likes: 2
From: Not in HKG
Defying logic I agree, but transparent?? If you re-join a certain carrier who cares about the "little things" then you actually might get the choice of fleet, plus your rank, a training position and your old payscale back. And as a bonus you get the chance to fck over your colleagues that endured Covid rules while you spent a few relaxed and comfortable months at home. Sweet.
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: World
Defying logic I agree, but transparent?? If you re-join a certain carrier who cares about the "little things" then you actually might get the choice of fleet, plus your rank, a training position and your old payscale back. And as a bonus you get the chance to fck over your colleagues that endured Covid rules while you spent a few relaxed and comfortable months at home. Sweet.
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 50
Likes: 2
From: hong kong
Hkfp is totally on the numbers with that article the only thing that is not correct in it is the names of the people involved. CP is a dead duck as an employer, there left seats are now full of rushed through “Kinder Suprises”.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 100
Likes: 0
From: HONG KONG
yes you did, you just voluntarily signed away a contract for a CX changeable document. If no one signed, how would it have turned out?
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 794
Likes: 297
From: sierra village
The two edged sword of the seniority system. The employers love it, it deters their more experienced and valuable crew from jumping ship for better conditions. Thus allowing them “squeeze” their crew just that teeny bit more.
With the perennial oversupply of pilots, the seniority system was good for crews - it prevented the dog eat dog scenarios that exist in competitive workplaces.
As flawed as the seniority system may be, the alternatives are far worse.
With the perennial oversupply of pilots, the seniority system was good for crews - it prevented the dog eat dog scenarios that exist in competitive workplaces.
As flawed as the seniority system may be, the alternatives are far worse.