HKExpress further pay cut

[FlightDetent]

Originally Posted by lucille

I recall chatting with Tu-154 crews in the ‘80s and early ‘90s on $400/month and no allowances and sleeping on their aircraft for a few days on end.

Don't underestimate the inflation and power of living cost. Those 400 USD probably were around 5x the median income where their families lived then, plus running a SoHo export-import (sewing machines was a big thing) one could easily double the value before kissing the wife.

6x median would be 8000€ net across the EU these days, as widely as the region differs. Not sure about your place.

[krismiler]

I recall chatting with Tu-154 crews in the ‘80s and early ‘90s on $400/month​​​​​​

In Russian terms at that time, it was pretty good money and with the collapse of the Soviet Union at the end of 1991 the economy was in dire straits. Dodgy operators with beat up old Antonovs were undercutting western companies throughout the third world.

Even if flying went back to normal would the pay scale ever really return ?​​​​​​

Usual case of supply and demand, domestically China isn't too bad and some expats have returned, BUT on local rates. The days of an A320 Captain going straight onto an A330 and doubling his pay are over for the foreseeable future. The zero dollar flag chasers will return a lot sooner than business travellers flying SYD - LHR via HKG in the premium cabins. CX will probably downsize into a regional operator with a few long haul routes, similar to the unmentionable in Abu Dhabi. It is quite possible that Cathay could go out of business altogether, they have no domestic network to fall back on in the way that QF and airlines in the USA have, and they lack the government backing enjoyed by EK and SQ. The gap left could easily be filled by the mainland Big 3 with HKG being a virtual hub and most of their costs being at cheaper mainland rates . Having Air China operating long haul flights from the city is a real stamp of authority. HKG is well positioned as a hub, has an award winning airport and the city is an attractive stop over option. At one stage, prior to COVID, China Southern was the cheapest option for Sydney - London. Having CX go under and dividing the pie up among the mainland airlines could be an attractive option in Beijing.

[Dragon Pacific]

I wonder where UO fits in that scenario Kris; sold to BGA?
By the way GBA waited until the UO paycut to announce their salary or it would have been very similar, now it is 20% more. Capt 55k plus 25k special allowance plus 500 an hour up to 50hrs and a bit more after that. Tread water in HK if you are lucky.

[krismiler]

Greater Bay have applied for 104 route licences and currently have 3 ? B737s and expect 30 within 5 years. Many Chinese airlines manage dual A320/B737 fleets so it's not impossible. UO could be spun off as a separate entity for the flag chasers or merged as a going concern.

[Jnr380]

Most keep forgetting at the height of the shortage, Regional Airlines in the US upped their pay significantly and Vietnam airlines also increased their pay.

Everything happens in a cycle, demand and supply, in today’s day and age, people are starting to value their time and skills.

A pilot now will take a job for next to peanuts if it means that it keeps them current, but this is in the short term. In about 5 years time, this problem won’t exist and the pilots will move around to the company that pays more than the other one with the obvious of trade-off of seniority protection and time till command till the next pandemic/economical crash/recession.

UO and CX will struggle to attract Quality pilots and that’s when the pay creeps up.

I remember writing a post in 2008 or whatever on PPRuNe, commenting on how the industry will recover and there will be shortage, the amount of abuse I copped and how wrong I was was astounding.

[Curry Lamb]

Originally Posted by Jnr380

UO and CX will struggle to attract Quality pilots and that’s when the pay creeps up.

I’m not gonna hold my breath on that one!

(No pun intended)

[freightdoggiedog]

Jnr380

Arguably (from a CX pilot perspective at least) you were. In the years following 2008 we didn’t even manage to keep up with inflation, and saw progressively worse contracts imposed on new joiners, starting with HKPA replacing housing in 2010 and culminating in COS18.

The shoving of that last “contract” down our throats represents a paycut of +40% for most who were here in ‘08, a loss of PFund closer to 60%, a slashing of the schooling allowance and most of all the removal of housing assistance (in the city with the world’s most expensive accommodation). The result is an astounding cut of well over 50% of our remuneration: there’s no coming back from that, ever.

[Jnr380]

From a time line perspective, no pilot was forced to sign COS08 (local) / C scale. But 2020 we had no option. Management took a gamble and it played in their favour, simple. This was also the time there was glut in the industry. Still as the industry recovered, no one was really leaving CX, so C scale wasn’t that bad overall.

Im not good at predicting the future but the way my seniority number has shot through the roof the last 9 months. Something will give either way.

But I’ll shut up now as this is a UO thread and it seems to be getting Highjacked by CX again.

Anyways, l feel for UO crew (as I know many of them) were already feeling the pinch on the new contract and weighing up options now they’re decision to stay and go has already been made for them.

Not to mention the added complexity of Immigration,

[pfvspnf]

Hke will close down like dragon ? Or stay open forever

[AusTronaut]

Perspective

So, just to be on the same page, the guys that work for the LCC are complaining about their low salaries when they can go back to their countries, and enjoy the weather while getting paid for doing nothing? Is that so?
What about the thousands of other great guys that are back in their countries with NOTHING?
Let's try to call things by their name!

[Rie]

Please go on and tell everyone how someone can leave a country where they are expected to be working in, paying rent, school fees for children, the pure membership for their wife to return to their home country and pay more rent and living costs when they are paid HKD$17.4k per month? I know you are trying to troll but you have to look at this objectively for the industry. This is a company taking advantage of a situation to bring down the costs not for a pandemic but the future. Scaring people into signing something is not ever going to be great no matter where the job is located.

If you are an Australian then your brethren who are stood down are in a very unfortunate situation but your domestic travel possibilities mean a return to the cockpit is likely. Those fired have had to find other jobs and eventually may return to a cockpit once the hiring gated are opened.

[krismiler]

Have you ever tried getting an airline job in Australia ? In normal times it's extremely difficult, at the moment with all the stood down pilots and those forced to return home it's going to be impossible for years. There is a reason why so many Aussie pilots are working abroad.

[Sue Ridgepipe]

So, just to be on the same page, the guys that work for the LCC are complaining about their low salaries

So, just to be on the same page, please tell me how many of the people posting on here actually work for said LCC.....

[Rie]

Technically we are all the same group now. What happens in one affects the other. This is just a precursor to what's next.

[mngmt mole]

Absolutely correct.

[dabz]

[volare_737]

AusTronaut

A captain going home and still paying for his apartment in HK is basically left with just under 20K HKD ! Sure it is some money but won't get you far. If you have kids you definitely have to rob your savings !

[noboloco]

Whilst it is sad state, should still be grateful for still having a job and receiving any sort of income despite not working for well over a year. Can always sell their apartment in Hong Kong or cancel the rental contract and go home. They would be in a worse off situation if HKE just fired them all. Do you think pilots in places like Aus are any better off when QF just makes them all redundant, these people still have mortgages and rents to pay too, and mouths to feed.

[AusTronaut]

Originally Posted by Rie

Please go on and tell everyone how someone can leave a country where they are expected to be working in, paying rent, school fees for children, the pure membership for their wife to return to their home country and pay more rent and living costs when they are paid HKD$17.4k per month?

HKD17.4k, who? and for what? an FO with less that 1.5kTT for living in his own country?
and the captain that gets, HKD45k, for staying in his homecountry? by the way increased to HKD68k if staying in HK, once again, for doing NOTHING!
When the average salary in Aus is less than 5000AUD (HKD29k) but to get one of those, man you need to work! Oh, yeah I forgot down in Australia, we don't pay rent, of school fees, and money grows on my backyard trees.

Originally Posted by Rie

I know you are trying to troll but you have to look at this objectively for the industry. This is a company taking advantage of a situation to bring down the costs not for a pandemic but the future. Scaring people into signing something is not ever going to be great no matter where the job is located.

I agree with you. But I, like many others, have to work to get a similar salary. And please don't forget all the pilots that got the chop, how much are they getting paid?
So please call everything by its proper name.

I am sorry to hear they are getting a pay cut, but they still have a job, and most of them are getting paid for staying at home.

[Jnr380]

noboloco

The difference between being an ex-pat and a local is day and night.

As a local (e.g QF pilots) they can get other jobs in their home country as an instructor or driving a tram/train/bus or working in a warehouse to tie them over till they find another aviation job or another career.

As an expat, it’s next to impossible to get a job if you don’t speak the local language or get anyone to sponsor your visa, you’re just as good as stuffed