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And so it starts .....

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

And so it starts .....

Old 17th Feb 2020, 10:57
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And so it starts .....

The CP's have sent out their letters pleading with the pilots to bend over backwards again and take another bat up the ar*** for the team. We're all in the company together they say. Is that the same company who only last December declared that
the pilots were not part of the same family. The family that got a 2% pay rise, the family that received a full 13th month. Well family, ground as many planes as you like, when you need to fly them you will need PILOTS and that's the big lesson you need to learn and learn it well.

Stick to your guns guys and gals.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 13:38
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Unfortunately the current climate didn’t straighten the rubber backbone of the cx pilot population.
A lot of them can and will bend over backwards with that rubber backbone.
A good friend of mine just took SLS “because when they start laying people off they might remember who wasn’t helping them out”.
Very disappointing to say the least, but I’ve come to accept the reality that not many have the balls to take a stand against management for fear of retribution.

Last edited by Piet Lood; 18th Feb 2020 at 00:37.
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Old 17th Feb 2020, 23:48
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You guys need a reality check and wake up and smell the coffee.
You can have all the backbone you want, but it's going to be of very little use without a job.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 00:24
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Bullshit! I lost my job, partly because of my backbone and found another one.
Found another five in fact.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 00:30
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Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
You guys need a reality check and wake up and smell the coffee.
You can have all the backbone you want, but it's going to be of very little use without a job.
Please clarify... What precisely are you claiming? Please be specific.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 00:30
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It doesn't matter if you take SLS or not. Either option leads to the same soulless conclusion: the company is lawless, cynical, manipulative and threatening. Additionally, it is effectively doomed to a dystopian future in a slowly dying city, under the gaze of an oppressive tyrannical government. No pilot who desires a stable, rewarding and mentally healthy career can ever expect such an outcome with CX. Everyone knows that. The real test as an individual is to recognise reality, and then act on it. There really is no other option but to pack up and leave. Taking SLS or not won't alter that outcome. I left and it's only after you have cut the cord, and with the benefit of some distance do you realise how truly dysfunctional CX is.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 01:28
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I mean the company has a bigger problem now than during SARS, in fact bigger than anything ever in its history.
The fact that it is spreading quite well in Singapore with the high temperatures over there leads me to believe that it will stick around during the summer as well.
Supply problems out of China will probably lead to a global slowdown, which also wont be helpful.
Even if the virus is stopped, the protests might be back.
Hopefully the oil price will go lower, as long as we didn't muck up the hedge again..
Chinese airlines will be bailed out, we won't.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 01:38
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Originally Posted by Oasis View Post
I mean the company has a bigger problem now than during SARS, in fact bigger than anything ever in its history.
The fact that it is spreading quite well in Singapore with the high temperatures over there leads me to believe that it will stick around during the summer as well.
Supply problems out of China will probably lead to a global slowdown, which also wont be helpful.
Even if the virus is stopped, the protests might be back.
Hopefully the oil price will go lower, as long as we didn't muck up the hedge again..
Chinese airlines will be bailed out, we won't.
OK, those are all rational statements. So what does taking three weeks unpaid leave do for the survival of the airline? One week? Two? A month?

I personally believe it’s less than a week. The only way to save CX, if it gets to that point, is creditors, additional stock offerings, and/or cash infusion by current shareholders (Swire, Mainland, Qatar). Right? Certainly, employee sacrifice doesn’t go very far.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 02:50
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We can ofcourse discuss what will help cx more, but at this stage it needs all the help it can get imho.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 04:59
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
OK, those are all rational statements. So what does taking three weeks unpaid leave do for the survival of the airline? One week? Two? A month?

I personally believe it’s less than a week. The only way to save CX, if it gets to that point, is creditors, additional stock offerings, and/or cash infusion by current shareholders (Swire, Mainland, Qatar). Right? Certainly, employee sacrifice doesn’t go very far.
if it gets to this, expect your contract to disappear, your housing to disappear, your PF contributions to disappear, your pay to halve....you willing to take that bet?
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 05:24
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In NC's absence, some very rough, back of the fag packet calcs, done at the back of the bus:

Sending only 25 Captains on a base for 6 years would save as much as every single Captain (1500-ish?) taking SLS, just from housing.

I know it's not an immediate saving, but the comparison continues to beg the question about bases.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 06:05
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Does anyone here really believe that the future of a solid company can change based on a few pilots and cabin crew taking some unpaid leave? Do you realize the size of the bonuses the people at the top have been rewarding themselves with in the last few decades?
Honestly, what I hear from pilots sometimes really males me wonder
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 07:43
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Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
In NC's absence, some very rough, back of the fag packet calcs, done at the back of the bus:

Sending only 25 Captains on a base for 6 years would save as much as every single Captain (1500-ish?) taking SLS, just from housing.

I know it's not an immediate saving, but the comparison continues to beg the question about bases.
And that pretty much sums it up around here. This cost cutting solution has been staring them in the face for years but they've had umpteen excuses to study it, think about it, try to extract concessions for it, etc., etc. Now they are trying to bail out the Titanic with a bucket.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 08:40
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I have asked a few managers in my time: “why are you not interested in or willing or able to invest in the goodwill of your personnel?
The answer in some form or another was always that the beancounters can not put a number to goodwill into their spreadsheets.
Besides the fact that they can, since there have been multiple reputable studies done to prove that you can (between 8-12% of your salary costs), their disinterest is now biting them in the ass.
Can you imagine a workforce that will bend over backwards to help out your company in your time of need in stead of giving you the middle finger that you have shown them for years?
I can, because I used to be part of one.
Just not in HKG.
Too bad, the responsible people have already lined their pockets, but fortunately there is a thing like “karma”.

Last edited by Piet Lood; 18th Feb 2020 at 09:47.
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 13:40
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I think this SLS proposition would be VERY different if CX had a history (like DL does) of having a meaningful profit share.

Instead, CX steals from its employees during the good times by attacking benefits like housing, medical, and rosters. All the while they pump cash into shareholder dividends, management bonuses, and crazy gambles like the fuel hedging debacle. Then, during tough times, CX asks ALL employees for a salary concession. Fair??? No, either suck it up and reduce your dividends and bonuses OR get the furloughs going... but you aren’t taking my pay!
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 14:55
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If the doomsday / end of days scenario plays out would it not be better to have 3 weeks pay in your bank account versus the shareholders?
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 16:04
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Originally Posted by viking avenger View Post
If the doomsday / end of days scenario plays out would it not be better to have 3 weeks pay in your bank account versus the shareholders?
Agree 100%!!!
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 16:45
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Angel

Just a thought from outside CX & KA.
If the situation gets worse than it is now, would CXKA ask for more unpaid Leave?
If so, and if redundancies are made, would they payback money to those who loose their jobs?
What financial contributions, if any, is made by the big owners ie Swire and CAAC?
Is the company protecting the pilots by steralizing (sorry if misspelt) the flight decks on every handover? and are they supplying face masks etc?
If not, how can you operate unprotected, and what does your union say about that?
Do you honestly think that 3 weeks of your salary is going to save CXKA? if not, then get out NOW.
God bless you all
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 17:38
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Originally Posted by Piet Lood View Post
I have asked a few managers in my time: “why are you not interested in or willing or able to invest in the goodwill of your personnel?
The answer in some form or another was always that the beancounters can not put a number to goodwill into their spreadsheets.
Besides the fact that they can, since there have been multiple reputable studies done to prove that you can (between 8-12% of your salary costs), their disinterest is now biting them in the ass.
Can you imagine a workforce that will bend over backwards to help out your company in your time of need in stead of giving you the middle finger that you have shown them for years?
I can, because I used to be part of one.
Just not in HKG.
Too bad, the responsible people have already lined their pockets, but fortunately there is a thing like “karma”.
Perfectly said!
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Old 18th Feb 2020, 23:05
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Originally Posted by cxorcist View Post
I think this SLS proposition would be VERY different if CX had a history (like DL does) of having a meaningful profit share.

Instead, CX steals from its employees during the good times by attacking benefits like housing, medical, and rosters. All the while they pump cash into shareholder dividends, management bonuses, and crazy gambles like the fuel hedging debacle. Then, during tough times, CX asks ALL employees for a salary concession. Fair??? No, either suck it up and reduce your dividends and bonuses OR get the furloughs going... but you aren’t taking my pay!
Of particular note is our major 'shareholders' are (March 2018):

Air China (30%)
Swire Pacific (45%)

Qatar Airways had acquired a 9.6% stake in 2017 but I'm not sure if this is still the case.
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