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Lifestyle rosters

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Lifestyle rosters

Old 4th Dec 2019, 23:59
  #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 42
Posts: 976
Lifestyle rosters

So lifestyle (commuting??) rosters. Less time off than I had prior to CMP as proffering was possible but have to give up housing and CEA. Hmmmm. I expect given this companies track record that if you don't sign up to this max days off will be 3 or 4 in a row so as to make commuting impossible.

Every other airline who have commuting rosters offer FIRM free tickets home, not CX, priority 8, so if the flight is full enjoy your days off hanging around HKIA. For the return to work better buy full fare so as not to gather missed duties. Why do they always want to screw their employees by trying to do things "smarter"?

Last edited by SloppyJoe; 5th Dec 2019 at 00:39.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 00:45
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: now a paxdoggiedog too...
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On top of losing housing/schooling, you get to pay for your own accommodation when in HKG, plus the commute is on your days off, and you lose half your leave, and no more joker Gday requests or even normal requests, and tickets are PRI8 which means you are not really guaranteed a seat plus you have to organise the commute yourself with all the attendant stress, but you still get to pay for the airport tax on it... looks like a poor man’s version of the KAL commuting contract. Why bother, especially on the 747 and Airbus.

They are trying to sell us something that the upcoming JCR does anyway, ie compact our rosters a little, but of course they want their cake and eat it too. Essentially they are trying to get us to pay for something that would be easily possible for them to offer anyway, should they choose to.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 01:09
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Norwich
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Did we expect anything different? They know guys are chomping at the bit to get a "commutable" roster and I'm sure there will be takers.....
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 01:22
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: New York
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Mate, this is not about your ability to commute, it’s just another cost saving measure in typical Cathay style.

Before the introduction of CMP I used to commute on Ws at least once a month, quite often with more than the minimum 8 days off.
On the 747, a NAM pattern used to be at least a week, which triggered 6 days off from table X and my mates tell me it used to be a one week on/one week off kind of deal on that fleet.

Then, under the promise to maximize days off, CMP was introduced and magically Ws disappeared and quite a few patterns on the 747 to NAM shrunk to 5 days, triggering only 5 days off from table X.

This obviously changed the dynamics for commuting.

The new commuting rosters will offer 10 days off or 2 x 5 days off, which will result in 12 days off (with 2 days of leave) or 2 x 6 days off (with an additional day of leave).
I would rather say that this proposal is not even as good as the situation used to be before CMP when I was able to commute at least once a month, most of the time very close to 10 days off or even longer.
On the 747 this proposal does not even exceed the minimum entitlement from table x after two 6 day patterns to NAM.

This commuting proposal barely brings back what has been lost not so long ago. Of course at the price of giving up housing, CEA and losing precious days of leave - in other words, higher productivity for the buck.

In typical Cathay style they took away something and then hand it back at a price.

And once you sign up for it it’s at the sole discretion of the company in case you want to reverse your decision and go back on full expat benefits, wink, wink.

IMO the whole proposal is not about lifestyle, it’s a trap and it just might be another desperate attempt to attack housing.
If it was about lifestyle just bring back the old system under Ws as it was working fine.







Last edited by Frank W. Abagnale; 5th Dec 2019 at 04:32.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 04:01
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Asia
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by Frank W. Abagnale View Post
Mate, this is not about your ability to commute, it’s just another cost saving measure in typical Cathay style.

Before the introduction of CMP I used to commute on Ws at least once a month, quite often with more than the minimum 8 days off.
On the 747, a NAM pattern used to be a at least a week, which triggered 6 days off from table X and my mates tell me it used to be a one week on/one week off kind of deal on that fleet.

Then, under the promise to maximize days off, CMP was introduced and magically Ws disappeared and quite a few patterns on the 747 to NAM shrunk to 5 days, triggering only 5 days off from table X.

This obviously changed the dynamics for commuting.

The new commuting rosters will offer 10 days off or 2 x 5 days off, which will result in 12 days off (with 2 days of leave) or 2 x 6 days off (with an additional day of leave).
I would rather say that this proposal is not even as good as the situation used to be before CMP where I was able to commute at least once a month, most of the time very close to 10 days off or even longer.
On the 747 this proposal does not even exceed the minimum entitlement from table x after two 6 day patterns to NAM.

This commuting proposal barely brings back, what has been lost not so long ago. Of course at the price of giving up housing, CEA and losing precious days of leave - in other words, higher productivity for the buck.

In typical Cathay style they took away something and then hand it back at a price.

And once you sign up for it it’s at the sole discretion of the company in case you want to reverse your decision and go back on full expat benefits, wink, wink.







Agreed that this is hopelessly inadequate. All the costs borne by the pilots and not even half a month off.

Last edited by Bangaluru; 5th Dec 2019 at 04:02. Reason: Typo
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 04:16
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: CLK
Posts: 296
Did you honestly expect CX to miss an opportunity to take a few more dollars out of your pocket?
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 11:04
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Can I ask? What is a W pattern. In 35 years of flying I have never heard of this term.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 13:24
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Join Date: Feb 2005
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A-B-C-B-A, A-B-A-B-A etc.
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Old 5th Dec 2019, 20:05
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Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Fragrant Harbour
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Originally Posted by SOPS View Post
Can I ask? What is a W pattern. In 35 years of flying I have never heard of this term.
Two long haul patterns in a row.

For example,
HKG-JFK-HKG, min rest, HKG-LAX-HKG.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 00:27
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Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,118
Goodbye staff travel. With a bunch of Pri8 we will never see J class again, especially in and out of Oz!!!
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 01:00
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 49
Posts: 213
If you want to take this deal, be my guest. But for me no thanks. But it wouldn't surprise me with some of the intelligent pilots we have, that there will be those falling over themselves to sign up. EOI...pffffttttt!
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 01:07
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: New York
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Originally Posted by freightdoggiedog View Post
They are trying to sell us something that the upcoming JCR does anyway, ie compact our rosters a little, but of course they want their cake and eat it too. Essentially they are trying to get us to pay for something that would be easily possible for them to offer anyway, should they choose to.
I wouldn’t put too much hope on JCR.
With the introduction of lifestyle rosters I suspect that Cathay will fiddle with JCR and take control of it as much as possible.
The more people bite for lifestyle rosters the more the rosters of non takers might be affected.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 02:24
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 94
As someone said on Yammer how about those whose “Lifestyle” is living in HK with their families? They want blocks of Gs from time to time too and should be in with as much of a shout as the commuters.
The RRO, (reduced roster option) or month on, month off, has proved popular in KA. All the company want is as many B scalers off housing as possible.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 03:04
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Eden Valley
Posts: 1,754
Yes. Commuters can have an insatiable appetites for their own circumstances. Management exploit this. RRO at KA has now dropped to its fourth tier. It may hold their for awhile as a number of Managers are in excess to requirements .

Gnadenburg is online now  
Old 6th Dec 2019, 04:56
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Never You Mind
Posts: 80
It's an EOI...
Express your (lack of) interest. The way to get blocks of days off is via a PBS (and keep your accommodation/education allowance).
Using leave, subload tickets, no housing... seriously..
Mill Worker is offline  
Old 6th Dec 2019, 14:20
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Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: All over
Posts: 159
It used to baffle me how pilots (who at the time were well paid) often found themselves in financial difficulty. Trained professionals, well educated, who should know better. While I might be able to understand the ex-wife factor, most of the cases were well beyond this.

Kinda like that credit card with 21% interest well beyond. Who would DO something at an equivalent level of dumbness ?

Well, it doesn't baffle me anymore.

The company pays for 900 hours a year. It's an hours driven process. If you were to have a month on-month off roster (free and clear of other stuff) what remains would have to reflect 450 hours with a normal distribution of leave (i.e. instead of 42 days 21 days), G's, etc. with pay commensurate to half the work. And housing commensurate to their time staying in Hong Kong. And have some concrete assurances of length of time of contract and stability of conditions.

So I think it's likely to become another form of scam. Then again so is POS18 but apparently there are those who don't mind cutting their own wrists.

Pity in that there is potential for win-win but things here never seem to play out that way.

You'd think after the 23'rd Nigerian Prince trying to move money email that folks would catch on.
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Old 6th Dec 2019, 14:40
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Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 747
CX have thrown a low ball offer to see if there are any foolish enough to accept these terms. Sadly (and after my 27 year career there) it is a near certainty that they will have more than enough takers. Unfortunately, end result will be the erosion of rosters and commuting ability for those that stay in HK on the current terms. As someone else mentioned, all those Priority 8's will be taking the seats to and from the main ports, and hoovering up the blocks of days off. Needless to say, this will further divide the pilot group. A sober assessment of the terms quickly shows that the offer is appallingly lacking in substance (even Korean gives positive space to and from the commuters home port). It fascinates me how CX has such low regard for their pilots that they introduce policies that no sane airline would dare. Sadly, the pilots seem to validate that assessment nearly every time. Good luck everyone, but this offer should be rejected wholesale. Instead, I suspect they have already had several volunteers.
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