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Not the Time for Apathy

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Not the Time for Apathy

Old 23rd Mar 2019, 05:13
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Paris
Posts: 7
Not the Time for Apathy

Dear Fellow Members,

The last few months for this Union have been somewhat tumultuous, marked by the heavily promoted but unacceptable TA package. 96% of you felt strongly and took the time to vote. This speaks volumes regarding your commitment to vote on something that matters so much to us all.

That moment is upon us yet again.

Last Monday, 7 out of 8 motions proposing goals, priorities, rules changes and alternative ways forward toward industrial agreements got majority support, but they failed because over 60% of member did not even vote. No changes means expecting the same outcomes again. It’s easier to do nothing…but there is one big change will affect everything.

This Monday, the voting closes for the motion to remove some GC members from their positions. That Rule 11.7 to remove leaders is being used in the first place demonstrates that this block of GC members has been and continues to be out of step with the membership.

May 2018 GC to Membership:

“The Membership is always the ultimate authority of the HKAOA. You elect your governance, you can bypass your governance, and you can ultimately replace your governance. This has never been in dispute.”

“…our Rules are our Rules, and we do not have the luxury of picking and choosing which ones we should follow or not. As a Member - you should expect nothing less.”

Rule 11.7 is one of our Rules. Those on the motion are there for a number of reasons spanning an extended timeframe, some for long term problems and some for more recent conduct. None are there only because they recommended the TA, but that they were ready and willing to implement the long-term irrelevance and powerlessness of our union for such a substandard TA is a very important factor. Some YES voters are not on the motion because they were not so actively involved in the harmful strategies, secrets and bad ideas that so hindered our association’s progress through negotiations.


The ongoing level of disconnection, overconfidence and dominance by these GC members was been brought to a head by the recent, unbelievable, secretly concocted political plot to commence defamation proceedings against a current member, the proposer of the motion. He complained of many rule violations while his motion languished unnecessary for weeks of GC manoeuvring. Finally, after all GC efforts to nullify it failed, the motion was put up for a vote as intended.

Still, during the vote, these 9 GC tried to coerce him to reverse his stance so they could win favour, with a ridiculous 450K HKD legal threat that is still pending this weekend. Using the membership’s own legal firm against a member shows extremely poor judgement on their behalf and ultimately to what lengths they will go trying to retain their positions.

Other GC members who were not part of this defamation action had agreed to resign should the motion pass. Soon after, shocked by their peers’ actions and the betrayal of trust after going to far to support them, most of those have now said that they no longer wish to be part of that resignation pact. Somehow, they still continue to claim some form of unity with the nine members who started this whole shambolic affair.

The Chairman is also a plaintiff in this legal action, using official HKAOA emails several times to support his agenda of maintaining power, whilst refusing to fully acknowledge his part in this appalling fiasco, eventually underplaying it by calling it a “mistake.”


Rule 11.7 for removal does NOT require supposed “gross misconduct” or any other specific reason, only a membership vote decides. As with our judgment during elections, the judgment about removal is left up to the membership to decide who represents us, and for how long.

The resounding NO against the recent proposal shows that the membership really does care about the things that matter. If this motion passes, there is a brighter future possible with new representations. This is not the end of the union, it’s a restart. The last election was a mess, and so many GC resignations. There are many suitable candidates willing to stand up for the betterment of the membership, knowing they know they MUST represent the whole membership properly.

This situation we find ourselves presently in is due to the current GC losing sight of and not listening to the membership, before and during negotiations, which has also continued through the TA vote to now, as seen by this attempted legal action by the 9 GC.

The GC is appointed by the Members for the Members to serve the Members. When we have a GC group that feels the need to sue one of its own, then they should be assessing their own position and how relevant they are in best representing the members interests whilst dealing with the company. Just because you are a volunteer does not mean you are beyond scrutiny and accountability. They all had a very long opportunity to resign. Without resignation or removal, 6 of these 9 would remain until the September 2020 election, if we don’t force an election now by supporting this motion. The chairman’s spot will be temporarily filled by a remaining GC member until the next GC meeting, and then until the next election. The world will keep turning.

The Membership will get the union it deserves if we don’t do anything to repair it now. We need to change this leadership now, and that means you need to vote before 2pm Monday. Please have your say and vote now and please do not resist voting for fear of change. Each of those removed is allowed to nominate for re-election right away if they choose, and then the membership will choose who is going to run OUR union. There is already an election nomination open to fill 3 Casual Vacancies and you are encouraged to nominate right now. Fill those GC positions. Nominations close 29 March.

This is not the time for apathy again, or we will end up with 60% not voting again. We could even end up with 65% who support GC removal, but a failed motion if not enough people vote again. Don’t let that happen! It takes 30 seconds to vote.

Please vote! And please vote for change now. Then, think about standing for the GC and help take action.
Kendra689 is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2019, 06:28
  #2 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: hong kong
Posts: 112
Excellent post , well thought out and written . I agree with everything that you said . I just hope that enough people take the time to read it and vote accordingly
cannot is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2019, 07:45
  #3 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Here
Posts: 465
And definitely not the correct forum to post this! 🤦🏻*♂️
crwkunt roll is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2019, 09:36
  #4 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: HKG
Posts: 39
Why the f is this sh!t on PPRuNe?
CRWCRW is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2019, 11:19
  #5 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Greener Pastures
Posts: 56
Originally Posted by CRWCRW View Post
Why the f is this sh!t on PPRuNe?
Most likely because if members post open and honest views on their own forum (HKAOA), their own GC will try to sue them using union lawyers.

Pretty simple concept really.

On apathy - CX pilots are generally apathetic because the money they receive is adequate compensation for the work they do. If you're concerned about your eroding conditions, then you will have left the toxic hell hole (as I have already done). Those that arent concerned or are tied by golden handcuffs are therefore apathetic, hence why nothing will ever change for the better at CX.
Roy De Kantzow is offline  
Old 23rd Mar 2019, 13:49
  #6 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Australia
Age: 66
Posts: 700
And why the f not? After 25 years in the AOA, it is about time for an enema. Knock it down and start again.
VR-HFX is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2019, 14:15
  #7 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
Have you maybe thought that the reason the majority of the motion only attracted a minority of the membership votes is because the majority think your ideas are stupid and cannot be bothered to even say no to it?
Frogman1484 is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2019, 18:53
  #8 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: crewbag
Age: 49
Posts: 314
..and the fact that all the motions were likely written by the same three or four hard-liners who are neither in touch with nor speak on behalf of the majority of cx pilots.

But they sure make a lot of noise both off and on the stage.

Last edited by quadspeed; 24th Mar 2019 at 23:58.
quadspeed is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2019, 22:16
  #9 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 116
Quadspeed. In fact most of the motions were entirely in keeping with the sentiment of the membership. Its the GC that is out of touch, but of course you know that.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 24th Mar 2019, 23:52
  #10 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
Quadspeed. In fact most of the motions were entirely in keeping with the sentiment of the membership. Its the GC that is out of touch, but of course you know that.
How is that a fact? Nobody cared. Really. Get over it.

quadspeed is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 02:04
  #11 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 116
Eloquent reply. I presume you are happy with the actions of the GC. Noted.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 04:32
  #12 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Age: 49
Posts: 314
Originally Posted by mngmt mole View Post
In fact most of the motions were entirely in keeping with the sentiment of the membership.
Again, since there's obviously a reading/ comprehension problem here....nice and slowly:

How is this a fact?
quadspeed is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 05:29
  #13 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 116
Continue as an apologist of a discredited GC. The motions were largely designed to counter the failings of our current negotiating process. Why dont you identify which of the motions are unreasonable , and why ? Obviously you must have reasons for your objections?
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 06:05
  #14 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
Mole, if less than 1/3 of the membership bothers to vote for your motion, it is you that is out of touch with the membership...and yes I am satisfied with the GC and with what happened. They recommended the TA, the majority voted no and the TA gets rejected...this is the process in place and it worked. Removing the yes votes and replacing them with people who are aligned to YOUR ideas is a fascist idea that does not belong in our Union!
Frogman1484 is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 06:50
  #15 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 601
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…
Obviously a quote from Winston Churchill quoting a predecessor during a Commons speech. The problem with the apparent apathy, in my humble opinion, was that there were simply too many motions put too soon after the vote on the TA. The membership was suffering from ballot fatigue (as opposed to battle fatigue) and the last thing needed, again in my humble opinion, was a barrage of motions proposed by those who felt that wholesale change was needed to correct what they perceived to be failings in policy, procedures and/or representation by the GC.

The democratic process has taken place twice of late; first, the overwhelming turnout against TA18; second the underwhelming turnout for the member motions. This should speak volumes to all of us and perhaps the actions by those proposing and seconding member motions were seen as being just as divisive to unity as the overwhelming rejection of TA18 was seen, for a short time at least, as a reflection of actual unity?

For better or worse, the HKAOA is a democratic body and with that, we should consider the following: you can please some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time but you'll never please all of the people all of the time.

Now, where did I leave that soap box?

Steve the Pirate is offline  
Old 25th Mar 2019, 07:36
  #16 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1,120
Excellent post STP!
Frogman1484 is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 00:41
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 6
As a former, multi-term GC member, I wouldn’t want to continue in that role as a supporter of the failed TA unless my position was confirmed by re-election. Not making a grand statement of virtue, just would want to know that the membership still supported me over others willing to serve. Otherwise, any work done is little more than a lame-duck waste of time.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 26th Mar 2019, 01:49
  #18 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Venezuela
Posts: 27
Not sure that any of you posting here are paying attention. The game has changed.
There is no future here, rather than get hot and bothered about making things better, people are making preparations to leave, a much better use of time and resources.

Get out, get on someone else’s list whilst things are good.

It’s all downhill at CX, always has been, always will be.
CyberT is offline  

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