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What is the plan?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

What is the plan?

Old 2nd Jan 2019, 08:39
  #41 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 99
Petrichor. It’s obvious reading your posts today that you are GC or NC. Give it up. Pathetic. You failed in your duty. Resign and regain your dignity.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2019, 22:29
  #42 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 421
Bell:
"Can someone pm me the names of those who have broken the training ban? I am not based in HK, so not an HKAOA member if they have been named a shamed there. I would hate to think that i am giving jumpseats out to them."
Based in HK or not, the AOA app will list the existing members.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2019, 23:01
  #43 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Canada
Posts: 64
AOA app?? Not in the HKAOA.
bellcrank88 is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2019, 23:18
  #44 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 421
I'm not in the HKAOA either, but my AOA app works just fine.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 2nd Jan 2019, 23:19
  #45 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Never You Mind
Posts: 95
One would assume that this deal will get a resounding NO vote. Assuming that is the outcome, surely the next step (whilst maintaining the current CC/TB) is to continue to negotiate for a better deal for all. That includes getting rid of CoS18. That document is the end of CX as a long term employer and the end of the AoA (no need for any form of negotiations for those that join on it).

Priorities (in no particular order): Withdrawal of CoS18, pay, housing and getting rid of HKPA at some point in a career. Even those who arrive with literally nothing are eventually as qualified as the next guy. At what point that is may be debatable but eventually a HKPA recipient should be on a proper housing package.
Mill Worker is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2019, 11:04
  #46 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Rosterabuseland
Posts: 63
Mole,

You are precisely the reason we as a pilot body are starting to eat each other! You shouldn’t make assumptions because wrong assumptions made in public can make you look like an idiot. I am not on the GC. Used to be many years ago- not anymore! My dignity is intact - yours..not so but hey good for you big boy, keep slagging off anyone with something contrarian to say and continue to make the CX Pilots look like inbred morons online. We seem incapable of having any meaningful debate on any forums before it disintegrates into a tirade of personal abuse yet the other forums seem pretty civilised.
Maybe we get what we deserve?

ps, have you ever given your time to working on the GC, or do you just prefer to shout from the sidelines?
petrichor is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2019, 13:12
  #47 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: in time anda space
Posts: 48
When have the company come back straight away and negotiated after a failed vote? Not a rhetorical question.

I know the union has: failed 49ers deal; failed ARAPA; failed RP07 vote. All led to a second round of voting.

I doubt there will be any re negotiation any time soon.
Hiro Nakimura is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2019, 14:16
  #48 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: HKG
Age: 51
Posts: 224
Hiro,

If it's not good enough as a whole or even in part you should not be voting it in period. Not only does it condemn everyone else in the process. But it also handcuffs you to a deal that was inferior to begin with, but ironically sends a message to the bosses that you are happy with the crumbs they have given. Instead send a big F you to the big brains that tabled this deal and the union reps that lubed up the pineapple in terms of a recommendation! It will be up to the company to solve the problem then or chew off the airline despite the big profits coming this year. As for the union I can only hope for change.
RAT Management is offline  
Old 3rd Jan 2019, 14:39
  #49 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: No where
Posts: 0
If we capitulate on this deal, of all the crappy deals, it WILL spell the end of the AOA, and the end of CX providing what used to be considered a "career" as a pilot. Everyone needs to reflect on the facts of the deal, not the emotions. It is inadequate on ALL levels. It deserves to be voted down. We keep CC and the TB and we let the operation continue to grind slower and slower. The management can't keep that sort of bluff going much longer. There IS a better deal out there. It's only our doubt and weariness that makes us think "why bother". I'll tell you why: it's because we (and individually, YOU) are worth more. Don't allow yourselves to throw away your value, and your dignity. This offer is a complete farce. It deserves to be thrown back in managements faces.
Air Profit is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 01:20
  #50 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Rosterabuseland
Posts: 63
Hiro,
I hear you...except for the 49’ers comment. My recollection is that there was no membership vote on the 49’ers’ reinstatement terms, only a vote to end the 5% levy. The 49’ers themselves decided on whether to accept the terms or not (rightly so). For those reading, this is not a cue to reignite another 49’ers discussion..
petrichor is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 02:34
  #51 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
So here we are. Having haggled for 4 years ( whilst receiving nothing and all other employess getting small but significant pay increases ) The company using every dirty tactic in it's arsenal to undermine the negotiations and unilaterally launching a completely new pay structure from Dec 2018 without even consulting the union you now want to sign away eberything you have worked for ? In any negotiation you haggle and then you final act is to walk away. We need to walk away from this one. What will the company do ? London will tell them their bluff was called and to settle so the biggest cashcow in the Swire machine can make money again.

Walk away.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 04:53
  #52 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: one country, one system
Age: 53
Posts: 194
Originally Posted by unitedabx View Post
So here we are. Having haggled for 4 years ( whilst receiving nothing and all other employess getting small but significant pay increases ) The company using every dirty tactic in it's arsenal to undermine the negotiations and unilaterally launching a completely new pay structure from Dec 2018 without even consulting the union you now want to sign away eberything you have worked for ? In any negotiation you haggle and then you final act is to walk away. We need to walk away from this one. What will the company do ? London will tell them their bluff was called and to settle so the biggest cashcow in the Swire machine can make money again.

Walk away.

You forgot to mention we actually did get an offer and we walked away from it. My impression is it did not serve us well.History books are full of tragic examples of failed deals. I strongly assume Louis XVI would have accepted concessions to the commoners on his way to the guillautine, and maybe a company called Excel would not walk away again from an offer to buy Google for 750k. Everytime you "walk away" you might fall from a cliff..

Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 4th Jan 2019 at 05:13.
Sam Ting Wong is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 05:27
  #53 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: Greener Pastures
Posts: 56
The argument that you cannot comment or criticise the GC or NC unless you are actually on the GC or NC is utter nonsense!!

A fully paid member of the HKAOA has absolutely every right to be angry over what has happened. There has been a complete LACK of leadership from the President, and this has, as a whole been exceptionally poorly handled.

No member should have to 'step up' to be on the GC/NC to offer opinion on their actions. All members of the HKAOA team from the pilot body are VOLUNTEERS. No one asked them to be on the council. I'm afraid you 'live by the sword, and you die by the sword'.

You could make the same argument of politicians. Do you feel it is acceptable to criticise them when you do not agree with what they say, or would you meekly go along with whatever they want, as, hey, you're not an elected politician? Of course the pilot body has the right to criticise without being on the council!

We have to get real here guys. We have as an association failed miserably. We should all take responsibility for this, as a group of pilots, but ultimately, the Chairman and the council are responsible. I have long since felt we need professional negotiators employed full time to come up with solutions, not (albeit enthusiastic) wannabe amateur lawyers who are actually pilots!
Roy De Kantzow is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 05:33
  #54 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Krug departure, Merlot transition
Posts: 590
If the deal is good enough, perhaps. This one is a “turd” by even its most ardent defender’s definition. Ergo, walk away.
main_dog is offline  
Old 4th Jan 2019, 07:47
  #55 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: hong kong
Posts: 40
Hang on! It's been defined as 'a turd with sprinkles'. Although, they didn't go in to specifics about what the 'turd' had been sprinkled with.
badge42 is offline  

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