Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

LOSA fail

Old 19th Oct 2018, 05:30
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 179
LOSA fail

Airbus fleet fail the last LOSA. Massive increase in non-compliance and undetected errors. Another LOSA to be conducted shortly.

Some say the next LOSA will be rigged so only company bitches (TC/STC/BTC) are observed to try to get better looking results. If next LOSA does not show big improvement common type rating might be history. All other operators have dropped it.

Not easy with no-one giving a flying fck anymore, many special procedures depending on version of acft and crap electronic manual system not high-lighting changes.

Perhaps we will see the 330s heading to Dragon at a faster pace and CX only operating the A50.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2018, 05:42
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 403
True, but it was all fleets, not just the 'Bus. Similar increases in undetected and poorly handled errors across the board, so probably not a common type rating issue.

Another LOSA? Maybe, maybe not: cx only does it to get a 30% discount on our insurance; the actual results are, in all probability, irrelevant.

Not easy with no-one giving a flying fck anymore, many special procedures depending on version of acft and crap electronic manual system not high-lighting changes.
Very accurate.

I stand a bit corrected: worse generally on the 'Bus, but undetected errors about the same on all fleets. "Who cares?"

Last edited by OK4Wire; 19th Oct 2018 at 05:50. Reason: New info
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2018, 08:58
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The sky
Posts: 30
Its also a requirement of one world membership and they are audited by their partners.
Natca is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2018, 16:20
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
True, but it was all fleets, not just the 'Bus. Similar increases in undetected and poorly handled errors across the board, so probably not a common type rating issue.

Another LOSA? Maybe, maybe not: cx only does it to get a 30% discount on our insurance; the actual results are, in all probability, irrelevant.

Very accurate.

I stand a bit corrected: worse generally on the 'Bus, but undetected errors about the same on all fleets. "Who cares?"
No it wasn't on all fleets. The A fleet has now reached a level of errors that dismantles toe cross type flying agenda. A350 or A330 not both. The Boeing fleets had a slight increase in error rates but well within tolerance.
The question should be "where are these results published ". Answer, they are not.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 19th Oct 2018, 18:57
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere above the sea
Posts: 186
Tick tock, tick tock
ron burgandy is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 00:21
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 169
Last losa was a joke.....less flights and they were even testing the same crews....i know one captain was “randomly” selected 3 times ...i think it made he was like 7 percent of the whole staff sampled during Losa....how many others had multiples of.....yeah Safety aint truly what we believe in....we just say those words...
Scoreboard is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 03:37
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: uk
Posts: 0
Originally Posted by Scoreboard View Post
Last losa was a joke.....less flights and they were even testing the same crews....i know one captain was “randomly” selected 3 times ...i think it made he was like 7 percent of the whole staff sampled during Losa....how many others had multiples of.....yeah Safety aint truly what we believe in....we just say those words...
LOSA now an inhouse "fix". No credibility at all and buried by corporate saferty.
unitedabx is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 06:28
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 516
Yep

Last LOSA was only on regional day turns
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 20th Oct 2018, 08:28
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
Not All Fleets

Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
True, but it was all fleets, not just the 'Bus. Similar increases in undetected and poorly handled errors across the board, so probably not a common type rating issue.

Another LOSA? Maybe, maybe not: cx only does it to get a 30% discount on our insurance; the actual results are, in all probability, irrelevant.

Very accurate.

I stand a bit corrected: worse generally on the 'Bus, but undetected errors about the same on all fleets. "Who cares?"
It was the AB fleet that is driving this and the AB fleet will get a do-over asap... FACT
Talk to those that are dual qualified and get some stats on how long they can go without operating the other type....
Safety first right ?????????
Flex88 is offline  
Old 22nd Oct 2018, 22:13
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Frankfurt
Posts: 7
As the person responsible for running LOSA maybe I can clarify some apparent misconceptions. LOSA is an audit, not an exam, so you cannot fail. The use of the term ‘error’ is a bit misleading in that we audit against the manuals. So, a lot of ‘errors’ involve light switches, call outs, etc. On the A350 we see a lot of ‘no Mobile’ switch events. So you need to keep some perspective.

LOSA is run by FOP, not buried in safety. In 2014 we briefed pilots on the main findings and copies of the full report were made available in fleet offices and corporate safety if anyone wanted to read it. We have changed the nature of LOSA, moving from an audit every 4 years to smaller, more frequent observations based on operational issues. I consulted with Qantas when setting this up: it’s what they do. We have now done 4 observations in 12 months.

For the B-777 and Airbus we did use regional sectors as this was the most cost-effective way to collect data on the adherence to procedures. For the B-747 we did a study on 2 crew, 2 sector WOCL operations and that did involve some sectors in North America. We try not to audit the same individuals wherever possible but, frankly, that’s just a matter of luck. LOSA, though, isn’t an audit of people. It looks solely at the operation. It is de-identified, anonymous data that is aggregated to look at trends,

We have been feeding data into the current lunchtime CRM, which is where some of the comments in this thread seem to have come from. We have just completed the follow-up A350 audit and I am analysing the data at this moment. Once Fleet and Training offices have been updated we will share the headlines in the CRM class. I know of one airline where the LOSA report is secret and is kept in a safe. We don’t do that. If anyone wants to know more, they just have to ask me.
Adrift is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2018, 03:34
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: HONG KONG
Posts: 85
Adrift......another company pilot 'helping out'
Brown Nose is offline  
Old 23rd Oct 2018, 05:04
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
ADRIFT - Another freighter pilot helping out.

LOSA - The LOSA collaborative "used" to be invited in (at cost) to conduct these audits however I believe now, as it is more "cost effective", it's run by FOP (i.e. CX) whom has "modified" the audit in every way possible to better suit and fit their own "special" requirements.
In other words, they want to control the "outcome" - there is no other reason. Even after this, the AB results are moving in the wrong direction.. And, similar to the Brexit vote, they want another vote (audit) until they get the outcome they want.
Just re read ADRIFT's message. Says it all.

And just so we are all on the same page and direct from the mouth of ADRIFT, this audit is now run by FOP.... What that means is that now FOP audits itself... any comments on this "cost effective" new way of having an audit ?
Flex88 is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 00:01
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 100
What is the point of running an audit on the 777 during local flights when the majority of flights are long haul .
I know I perform better when I’m rested and operating on local time
run an audit on a JFK flight late night departure followed by a return also back of the clock with possible de-icing before departure to get a more realistic picture ,
Tea time is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2018, 03:08
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
What's the Point

Tea Time

What's the point ?
Like I said above, there are 2...

1. Cheap cheap cheap cheap
2. They want to control the outcome so they manipulate the make up of the "audit"

It's as blatant as you can get...
Flex88 is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 20:59
  #15 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: HKG
Posts: 179
Adrift, thanks for your post. I now have no faith whatsoever in LOSA.

If data is only collected for short haul flights the LOSA programme is invalid for much of our operation. If anything the focus should be on the end of flight phases to ULH with two SOs.

If it is OK for FOP to perform LOSA in house is it also OK for me to do my own AL and PC?

One day we will crash an aeroplane. LOSA will just be another hole in the cheese.
controlledrest is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 21:36
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 833
Could not have put that better. 👍
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 22:17
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: u.k.
Posts: 49
Due cost cutting the cheese has been removed!.
Border Reiver is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:21
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 833
Adrift, read what Controlled Rest has to say. That sir is the most accurate synopsis of the reality of how vacuous your efforts are. The even sadder aspect of this debacle is how you are attempting to justify your failure, and probably actually even believe your own BS. Your LOSA is just another brick in the wall, a wall that is soon to come tumbling down. Like everything else to do with this once great company, it has been corrupted and rendered terminally ill. Thanks for your contribution to that outcome.
mngmt mole is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2018, 23:25
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 169
I call BS adrift....the captain I know who was audited THREE times was preforming a regional flights.....but as everyone is well aware if that mistakes been made in flight selection there is another regional departure standing right next to that flight. He protested and pointed the stupidness of what they did ......but shoved it on.

as for splitting hairs over which department runs the LOSA ....omg you are a ****....so its FOP not the ISD or ACCOUNTING or the swizel stick dept.....the goal is the same .....SAFETY of our operation in the cockpit. Another managemnt suckup ...
Scoreboard is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2018, 03:09
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: HK-CRoC
Posts: 601
Wink LOSA - Latest Baguette

If you read the info re "Lights" the just of his comments read basically; change the SOP to make the operation safer? Not going to happen suckers.
Just another error on the next LOSA and those holes in the cheese continue to get much bigger.

Only at CX...

Safety is our first priority...
Flex88 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.