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The Carrot is dangled (again)

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

The Carrot is dangled (again)

Old 27th Sep 2018, 11:49
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The Carrot is dangled (again)

3 years, 3 x GMAs and 3 x DFOs later and they're still doing a 'feasibility' study into bases
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 12:22
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This place is a living testament to the wisdom of PT Barnum in so many ways.

There's a sucker born every minute.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 12:47
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It is quite stunning:

From the FOP update: "While I don't believe this project will be finalised by the end of 2018, we are making good progress and I am confident we can provide some much-needed direction as promised."

And earlier; "... alternative rostering arrangements, which may supplement a future base portfolio" Is that code for a crappy commuting contract?

As the thread started, ... the carrot is dangled again!
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 12:57
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How many more spreadsheets do we need to figure out that a base is cheaper than a captain on expat terms with a couple kids in school. Even with the odd type change every couple of years it is still worth it.

You don't need an MBA or a zoology degree to work that out.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 13:01
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Originally Posted by AQIS Boigu View Post
How many more spreadsheets do we need to figure out that a base is cheaper than a captain on expat terms with a couple kids in school. Even with the odd type change every couple of years it is still worth it.

You don't need an MBA or a zoology degree to work that out.

Yes, ... but our beloved company is trying to figure out how to man the base with even cheaper pilots as well as avoiding those nasty first world labour laws.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 13:07
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Actually I rephrase...

The zoologist had 40% of CX pilots on bases and he was very happy to tell everyone (and so where those 40%).

The RAF electrician and the 747 sim instructor started messing with them.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 13:11
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Originally Posted by arse View Post
Yes, ... but our beloved company is trying to figure out how to man the base with even cheaper pilots as well as avoiding those nasty first world labour laws.
Therein is the problem. They can't do that. They actually have to negotiate a contract (which, perhaps while cheaper than HKG, won't be cheaper than what they have now on a base even though most based contracts are already inferior to majors in pay) and will be held to account to law. In other words they can't cheat, can't impose, and have to do what they say.

So they won't do that. Simple as that.

Certainly have enough history behind it.

But still, on this and many other issues, weak minded individuals will continue to cling to straws and unbinding promises well into the future. Ya got what ya got now and that's it. If you envision a future career in this industry methinks it would be wise to get the hell out of here as quickly as humanly possible. If POS 18 isn't a stark reminder of that I don't know what is.
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 15:12
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Oops.... I totally misread the thread title and thought it had something to do with a former Airbus Manager (now Line-Manager) dangling something or being dangled off something. How disappointing, just more management BS....
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Old 27th Sep 2018, 23:54
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As someone who used to be part of that crowd (looonngggg time ago), you have no idea. It is ALL BS, they wallow around in it, create it, spread it...and sadly, many of them come to believe in it. I couldn't take it anymore, and had to get out. It amazes me that there are people who dedicate their entire careers to that aim. I suppose that defines their lives, the "title" on their business cards. Ultimately, they are working for the devil, and deep down, most of them know it, but desperately try to ignore that voice in their heads. Sad, pathetic and ultimately destructive, both to themselves, and those they "manage". The company is doomed, and most of the managers will be like Slim Pickens in the penultimate scene of "Dr Strangelove" (watch the movie if you haven't).
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 01:04
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Close bases, at least a hundred Pilots gone - some of the most senior ones too......half the Aussie Pilots will never go back to HK.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 01:09
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Nor most of the NA based pilots. Many wouldn't come back for commands, never mind being forced back as FO's. This company just gets more impossible by the day. I'm sure the GMA is all over trying to "help" the pilots in their lifestyle issues.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 03:04
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Originally Posted by Air Profit View Post
This company just gets more impossible by the day.
A sad summation that many us are feeling.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 03:43
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Hmmmm ... improvements???
Let us just watch the desperate in our midst rush to sign up for what I believe is likely to be announced, which will be a "commuting roster".
It may well only be available for those who choose to jump to the sinking ship of POS18. A nominal positive may be the intention to "normally" roster 2 to 3 periods of days, with periods between flights of 2-7 days. However this will have the small print of "as amended by the company" as their get out clause for when you don't subsequently get what you thought you'd signed over to POS18 for. Of course they will avoid the Australian LSL issue, and their labour protections, by keeping you administratively based in hk, so that they can equally revert such folk back to full hk base if it doesn't work for the company. As for taxation, prepare for the "taxation is an officers own responsibility" statement. This will be based on high priced taxation consultants advice, and we all know how reliable that has been in the past, with individuals left to mop up the mess caused by you know who. For those naive enough to think because they are remaining hk based and thereby out of the clutches of foreign tax departments, they are best advised to get their OWN advice. Such opinion is likely to dissapoint many. Anecdotally, one South African gentleman has already approached the ATO through his Australian accountant with a "what if..." scenario, and been advised he'll be classed as a tax resident of Australia under such a commuting scheme, but with credit for tax paid in hk.
As for what you'll have to give up in hk, this could be anything from ARAPA, housing, hkpa, schooling, travel etc depending on what COS/POS you are on, with a likelihood of most of your duty accommodation being in crappy Asian outport hotels, with the odd night in the headland the night you arrive in hk and the night before you go back to your commuting port.
Alternatively, ............ just hold the line.
Dont rush to take what in all probability will be a woeful offer.
They know it saves money having crew on bases. But if no one takes the bottom of the barrel commuting offer, there's a far better chance that bases will be re-offered.
What will be sad is if there is a stampede to sign up for such a poor deal.
We all know that you can't put an old head on young shoulders, and that you can't reason with stupid.
Lets not be our own worst enemies.

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Old 28th Sep 2018, 04:10
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Unfortunately pilots are selfish and plenty will flock to the commuting contract if one is offered, no matter how woeful
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 04:16
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That attitude is exactly why the "commuting contract" will be the worst package possible. The company knows there are enough weak kneed pilots who will accept just about anything to get out of HK. The shame of it is, if it was rejected, they would improve it, as the company needs to address the lack of basings quickly. Sadly, we will solve their problem for them. That is why this airline is the mess it is, as we have never stood up to the constant and unrelenting attacks for the past 25 years. CX is doomed as an airline for expats.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 05:29
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Check out the Emirates "commuting contract" to see how low they can go

https://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/pilots/

Click on "Skycargo Freighter"
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 05:31
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Well, duh. CO18 isn't an expat contract at all.

I do think that some will sign over when they hit 55. If you have flat paid for, and HK is your home, more attractive than going contract.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 08:46
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Re EK Cargo contract. Guess what? To help get around the (non) pilot shortage the cargo guys are flying pax flights as wel!! A win for EK ‘pax’ pilots on cargo rates!!!
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 15:22
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David Muir Turnbull is a businessperson who has been at the helm of 6 different companies and currently holds the position of Executive Chairman at Pacific Basin (something to do with posh ladies powdering their noses) Ltd. Mr. Turnbull is also on the board of The Wharf (nothing to do with Star Trek) Ltd.

He previously held the position of Chairman at Cathay Paciic Airways Ltd., Chairman at Hong Kong Aircraft Engineering Co., Ltd., Chairman of John Swire & Sons (H.K.) Ltd., Chairman at Seabury Aviation & Aerospace Asia (Hong Kong) Ltd. and Chairman of Swire Pacific Ltd.

Mr. Turnbull received an undergraduate degree and a graduate degree from the University of Cambridge, not Oxford.

He is most famously quoted as stating, 'There is no money in freight, unless you have a base in Manchester which is a main hub for express mail'.
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Old 28th Sep 2018, 15:24
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Oh. And it didn't work. ;-)
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