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Contract pilots at CX

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Contract pilots at CX

Old 24th Mar 2018, 21:36
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: up here, everyone looks like ants!
Posts: 955
CR, well summarized. That is so clear and the perspective obvious when it's all on one page.
Take note, wannabes.
This place is a toxic wasteland that will absolutely drain your enthusiasm and rob your soul.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 22:57
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 367
Before all of you deride the pilots of SAA trying to get out . Just read what is happening in SA right now , land grabs without compensation , farm murders almost daily .violent crime is out of control , and to top it all SAA is trying to shrink its way to profitability . If you ever believe thatís a workable solution.
It has been mis-managed by totally incompetent management for years , draw any parallels that you want.
I can understand why any pilot from SA offered a job would probably take it despite the conditions especially if they hold a SA passport with limited options of being able to emigrate to another country
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 23:10
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
Nobody is 'deriding' the SA pilots. I personally like the South Africans very much. The real issue is that our management is using them, and other geographically unfortunate persons to undermine all the other pilots at CX. Further, there is strong rumour that she is about to offer a 'commuting contract' to them, before any such thing is offered to the long-suffering pilots already employed here. This airline is done as far as a career is concerned. Well done to our greedy management in destroying one of the worlds great airlines.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 23:15
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
The most important aspect to realise about this issue is this: CX can hire from anywhere in the world they choose. There will always be some unfortunates who they will hire, to expressly undermine and cripple those pilots already employed. You will NEVER have a period of industrial peace in CX (I've experienced that very situation for over 20+ yrs now). You will always find your meager conditions under attack, and there will never be a positive outcome. Conflict and stress is all you can count on if you stay at CX. If you can leave, do so asap. CX is finished.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 23:37
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Originally Posted by oriental flyer View Post
Before all of you deride the pilots of SAA trying to get out . Just read what is happening in SA right now , land grabs without compensation , farm murders almost daily .violent crime is out of control , and to top it all SAA is trying to shrink its way to profitability . If you ever believe thatís a workable solution.
It has been mis-managed by totally incompetent management for years , draw any parallels that you want.
I can understand why any pilot from SA offered a job would probably take it despite the conditions especially if they hold a SA passport with limited options of being able to emigrate to another country
Maybe white SAs should be offered refugee asylum in safer, Western countries.
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Old 24th Mar 2018, 23:42
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,544
AT is doing this for purely humanitarian purposes...
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 00:06
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 0
Some senior Australian politicians have postulated bringing threatened white South African farmers into the country (a welcome change to some of the trash being allowed to immigrate into Aus under current policy).

Predictably, the lefties are squealing 'racist' and the South African government is denying that there is a problem.

I personally would welcome any new South African to fly with me in Cathay Pacific. As long as he or she joins as a Second Officer, on the bottom of the seniority list.

Last edited by Captain Dart; 25th Mar 2018 at 00:17.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 01:37
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Those are some excellent points CR.

The great problem with joining the rat race is even if you win you're still a rat.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 03:02
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Originally Posted by oriental flyer View Post
Before all of you deride the pilots of SAA trying to get out . Just read what is happening in SA right now , land grabs without compensation , farm murders almost daily .violent crime is out of control , and to top it all SAA is trying to shrink its way to profitability . If you ever believe thatís a workable solution.
It has been mis-managed by totally incompetent management for years , draw any parallels that you want.
I can understand why any pilot from SA offered a job would probably take it despite the conditions especially if they hold a SA passport with limited options of being able to emigrate to another country
There are always going to be people with a sad story. Not my problem. If your country is FUBAR. Than have a revolution. Donít come and shit on my door step. Not welcomed at all.
If you donít see this as a problem? Than your the problem.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 03:10
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 1
food for thought

Not that Im not calling foul myself with the SAA contracts, but just as food for thought, would the majority of SOs be kicking and screaming this quickly if it was any other airline other than SAA who got offered the contracts?
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 03:35
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by Curtain rod View Post
No. The "DECs" were hired just like everyone else, at the bottom of the list, on the prevailing contract at the time: Join as an SO, or a freighter FO on a base for 3 yrs, back when the freighter operation was only semi-integrated back into CX (pax 747 captains didn't have to fly the freighters unless they wanted to, and then approx 2007 all 747 captains had to also fly freighter if they wanted a temporary basing, and then in 2008 everybody had to, period).

But, back then, as new hires on Day 1, anyone could apply to become a freighter-only captain on super crappy freighter pay on a base, which soon came to include the new HKG freighter base, without housing but with reduced 24K allowance for captains. Thanks, idiots. Back then, anyone could change base to anywhere almost anytime in any country, and even be based at one place but have their roster based somewhere else, anywhere else (secret private deals, thanks, idiots), completely playing into the company's plan to skip all basing, seniority and contractual agreements while keeping FOs in HKG waiting for commands while all the idiots filled the 747 captain positions at lower pay and no housing. Thanks, idiots, for showing the company how much we're worth.

So, in effect, they were DECs, but they were not DEC, just freighter-only DECs on different, lower pay on the crappiest deal with the worst rosters and a long, long wait -forever for most, as it turned out - to get off the freighter. Most are still waiting hopelessly. They joined as FOs and then filled the endless available freighter-only captain positions that nobody else wanted.

Then, in 2008, the last of the ASL pilots were integrated into CX at the bottom of the seniority list (freighter-only captains forever, not enough years til retirement to get "pax" seniority to keep flying freighters anyways since no type changes here) but still on the non-existent crappy pay scale from before. By 2010, the last of the freighter captain fiasco finally came to an end with the last of those command courses, bases like SYD and YVR were overloaded with freigher-only captains (and little to no 747 freighter flights - so now they complain about too much PT they got in exchange for voluntarily taking crappy jobs at crappy pay to get bases ahead of more senior crew all while screwing HKG-based FO's out of an earlier promotion on full HKG terms including housing, thanks idiots), and freighter-only command courses were no longer offered on the bases or anywhere on the lower freighter terms, and then all commands were the same from then on, all HKG-based and anyone on a base had to come back to HKG for command unless they waited forever for a captain slot on a base (uhm, that only happened a bit on the 747, 6-7 yrs later or so, I think). Got that?
.
Those arenít the DECís Iím talking about. At least they were hired as FOís. Iím talking about actual DECís from Oasis Airlines when they went under, the few from Dragon who were offered the chance to come across directly, and way back when ASL was formed. All Captains right off the street flying Cathay aircraft. But yes, they were put at the bottom of the list. Just another example of how seniority means nothing here.

Last edited by rhinodriver; 25th Mar 2018 at 04:07.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 05:05
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
Posts: 4,728
Seems like the feeding frenzy for the soon to be laid off SAA pilots is beginning. How many will be attracted to HK remains to be seen.

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Old 25th Mar 2018, 06:42
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
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Originally Posted by DropKnee View Post
There are always going to be people with a sad story. Not my problem. If your country is FUBAR. Than have a revolution. Donít come and shit on my door step. Not welcomed at all.
If you donít see this as a problem? Than your the problem.
LOL. So no non HK passport holders should ever be given jobs in HK?
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 07:09
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 367
Dropknee, you have a cold heart . I wasnít suggesting that the SAA pilots come as DEC . They should join at the bottom of the seniority list as SOís like everyone else . All I was pointing out is that with a South African passport they have very limited options and so a job with CX is a chance to live somewhere without the fear of being shot for nothing more than a cell phone .

Having said that if I were an SAA Capt and Scoot offered me a DEC and a chance to live in Singapore that would be my first choice
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 09:00
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: HK
Posts: 123
If I was a caucasian pilot, with a family, in SA...I would be grasping at every chance I could to get my family out. There are numerous problems for whites in SA at the moment, they will increase and get worse. That is a definite fact.

If you want to vent anger about this (contract pilot recruitment), it is to CX you should direct it...

As for the frequent jibes directed at South Africans on various threads...take a minute to walk in their shoes.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 09:10
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
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Yes I appreciate that but Emirates etc were around before SAA announced a 10% reduction in size...
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 10:00
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: World
Posts: 38
Too true Curtain, my favourite is when guys who were happy to take an early freighter command are now whining at the latest letter to management because they just want be recognised as a Cathay Pilot not a freighter pilot.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 12:59
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: hongkong
Posts: 398
There are multiple options for the SAA guys at the moment not just Hong Kong. If you choose to take a job slap bang in the middle of a major industrial dispute and directly affect the efforts of those engaged in it then shouldnít you expect to take some heat??? Itís not about nationality or personalities .The SA boys are great guys. Itís about how the management choose to treat their current staff which is to say .. if you wonít eat crap weíll find some unfortunates desperate enough who will .
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 14:39
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
Well, alls I can say is I hope they have a gander here, elsewhere, and talk to a few folks before making the leap and realize they are being used. And what has happened to the different factions over the years; other than some sweetheart deals for individuals (and I can't see how someone could live with themselves after doing something like this--dollars are fleeting but integrity lasts forever) all the groups have seen things decline significantly. The BEST that has happened is some places have broken even--kinda--and even this is due more to laws where they are than anything else.

A man who marries his mistress leaves a vacancy in that position. So it's probably wise to fully understand what one is getting into before sacrificing precious years (and seniority) to a cause that will not love you back.
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Old 25th Mar 2018, 15:52
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Shower house of Africa
Posts: 275
the contract FOs will be paid on CX FO1 scale.
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