Ryanair. Please read and digest
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Joined: Mar 2008
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From: London
Ryanair. Please read and digest
Gentlemen/ladies: Please have a read of this article describing the chaos inside Ryanair and the resolve of their employees (who are suffering a similar regime to ours) to finally overcome the intolerable behaviour of their management. The articles title suggests it's about the cabin crew, but it goes into detail about the pilots strategy as well. I particularly like the comment that states "Ryanair is the North Korea of aviation". I think CX would vie for that title at the moment.
Ryanair cabin crew 'plotting mass strike and desertion to easyJet'
Ryanair cabin crew 'plotting mass strike and desertion to easyJet'
Last edited by Trafalgar; 4th October 2017 at 22:58.
Joined: Jul 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: with the ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
CX could be considered more as the Venezuela of Aviation. Resource rich, lots of potential, but incompetents in charge.
Joined: Apr 2017
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From: Uk
T'was always thus... Thank goodness the real instruction is only required at BTC level - to qualify the candidate as safe to land the airplane if the captain falls over. The checking and book-reading-box-ticking exercises could be done by any line captain (or indeed done in the classroom) as the 'trainee' is already a P1 rated guy(ess) undertaking LUFUS or, for the trolls and non pilots: line upgrade flying under supervision. Hardly an onerous task.
Joined: Oct 2007
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From: Hong Kong
GICAS12
Interesting, so no need for a safety pilot onboard until the landings reach a safe level? I'm sure the bean counters (and Michael OLeary, see below) would agree. After all the junior pilot is "P1" rated...might as well sign him off as a Captain after four sectors with the BTC.
So, please, don't be rediculous. We have too much of that already (see below).
Base training does not teach landings to the level where the safety pilot can be released, but rather to a level where the trainee can continue training with an STC...the STC then continues to train landings until the proficiency level reaches a satisfactory point where the STC can feel comfortable enough to release the safety pilot. Even then, a subsequent trainer can decide that the landings are unsafe and recommend that a safety pilot be placed back onboard. Does that help?
Until you've bounced around Asia with 400 Pax in the back, with only you and a barely competent novice in the other seat, albeit "P1" rated, you (and Michael OLeary, see below) can spare me your condescension.
Interesting, so no need for a safety pilot onboard until the landings reach a safe level? I'm sure the bean counters (and Michael OLeary, see below) would agree. After all the junior pilot is "P1" rated...might as well sign him off as a Captain after four sectors with the BTC.
So, please, don't be rediculous. We have too much of that already (see below).
Base training does not teach landings to the level where the safety pilot can be released, but rather to a level where the trainee can continue training with an STC...the STC then continues to train landings until the proficiency level reaches a satisfactory point where the STC can feel comfortable enough to release the safety pilot. Even then, a subsequent trainer can decide that the landings are unsafe and recommend that a safety pilot be placed back onboard. Does that help?
Until you've bounced around Asia with 400 Pax in the back, with only you and a barely competent novice in the other seat, albeit "P1" rated, you (and Michael OLeary, see below) can spare me your condescension.
Last edited by raven11; 5th October 2017 at 16:46.
Joined: Sep 2017
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From: GB
Ah yes we all remember when cx started employing pilots as 'contractors' to avoid tax, made pilots pay for their uniform, hotels, food and drink on board and £30,000 for a type rating and the privilege of being trained by r̶y̶a̶n̶a̶i̶r̶ cathay.
cx is far from perfect, but comparing it to ryanair is taking hyperbole to the extreme.
Cadets may be a cheap(er) way of crewing but at least cathay pays for their training in full, starts them off on a salary more than double that of ryanair cadets (who have already had to shell out £100k+ for training) and hire them as actual employees of the company meaning they're not just paid for the hours they fly.
cx is far from perfect, but comparing it to ryanair is taking hyperbole to the extreme.
Cadets may be a cheap(er) way of crewing but at least cathay pays for their training in full, starts them off on a salary more than double that of ryanair cadets (who have already had to shell out £100k+ for training) and hire them as actual employees of the company meaning they're not just paid for the hours they fly.
Joined: Apr 2017
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From: Uk
The real teaching at BTC level only? My word.
At my outfit safety pilots are released when far more than 'can land without damaging it'. There is far more to operating an aircraft in an airline than that and I am going to presume you know that too and are perhaps just prodding for the sake of raising a reaction..
At my outfit safety pilots are released when far more than 'can land without damaging it'. There is far more to operating an aircraft in an airline than that and I am going to presume you know that too and are perhaps just prodding for the sake of raising a reaction..
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Polar Route
Ah yes we all remember when cx started employing pilots as 'contractors' to avoid tax, made pilots pay for their uniform, hotels, food and drink on board and £30,000 for a type rating and the privilege of being trained by r̶y̶a̶n̶a̶i̶r̶ cathay.
cx is far from perfect, but comparing it to ryanair is taking hyperbole to the extreme.
Cadets may be a cheap(er) way of crewing but at least cathay pays for their training in full, starts them off on a salary more than double that of ryanair cadets (who have already had to shell out £100k+ for training) and hire them as actual employees of the company meaning they're not just paid for the hours they fly.
cx is far from perfect, but comparing it to ryanair is taking hyperbole to the extreme.
Cadets may be a cheap(er) way of crewing but at least cathay pays for their training in full, starts them off on a salary more than double that of ryanair cadets (who have already had to shell out £100k+ for training) and hire them as actual employees of the company meaning they're not just paid for the hours they fly.
Joined: Jul 2007
Aviation Qualifications: ATP+Mil
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From: with the ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
They can't say that they weren't warned. I and others put in our two cents worth on the Wannabes forum some time ago.
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 552
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From: Hong Kong
TangoAlpad...
You're right. No airline should strive to follow the daffy cost cutting craziness of Ryan Air. What's more, no pilot should engage in using a logical fallacy (such as Michael OLeary does, see below) to rationalize a rediculous conclusion.
You're right. No airline should strive to follow the daffy cost cutting craziness of Ryan Air. What's more, no pilot should engage in using a logical fallacy (such as Michael OLeary does, see below) to rationalize a rediculous conclusion.
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 56
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From: HK
Yes, Ryanair is !!!!. But for a millenial in UK, it is a reasonable choice and less !!!!ty than alternatives. Go to university, end up 50k+ in debt, hope for a graduate job that will pay enough to be worth it. At least the Ryanair route, for not much more debt, has a more certain pay off.
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Polar Route
Such is the norm in low growth or stagnant economies. The labor supply exceeds demand, and the incentives are minimized by high taxation and a generous welfare state which differs little from actually working for a living. Isn't socialism awesome?!?!
Joined: Feb 1999
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From: Nirvana
Capitalism in democracy is doing a great job too. Really? Doesn’t matter if it’s socialism, democracy or guided democracy or whatever variations of those you choose, capitalism and it’s greedy few beneficiaries are driving a wedge between the haves and have nots along with associated isolationism it creates. Eroding of the middle class is a sure fire way to discent and instability. AI and robotics are propelling this separation even more creating less jobs, not more.
Freedom is a great thing. When you can afford it. When you can’t you can expect the worst as is shown in ALL countries of the world.
When you neither understand socialism nor democracy and present your slanted view of your own interpretation that is prevalent from the ignorance of your own indoctrination then what hope is there to reconcile and move beyond the name calling into a honest open caring society that recognizes all the challenges that humanity faces today.
Please think before you flippantly disregard others as socialists, when a closer examination at home reveals your own socialist under ware.
Freedom is a great thing. When you can afford it. When you can’t you can expect the worst as is shown in ALL countries of the world.
When you neither understand socialism nor democracy and present your slanted view of your own interpretation that is prevalent from the ignorance of your own indoctrination then what hope is there to reconcile and move beyond the name calling into a honest open caring society that recognizes all the challenges that humanity faces today.
Please think before you flippantly disregard others as socialists, when a closer examination at home reveals your own socialist under ware.
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,117
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From: Hong Kong
Over the years, they have:
Increased our working hours to 900 pa
Reduced the work force to a minimum
Reduced the entry experience to a minimum so to reduce hiring costs
Reduced training to a minimum
Reduced the experience to two SO’s on long haul
Reduced the cadet program to 150 hours with no licence
Now they want to :
Reduce Housing
Reduce P fund
Increase productivity by reducing overtime payments or increasing the threshold
Reduce leave ( maybe)
What is next:
3 man long haul
Reducing monthly salary
Time to draw the line in the sand.
Increased our working hours to 900 pa
Reduced the work force to a minimum
Reduced the entry experience to a minimum so to reduce hiring costs
Reduced training to a minimum
Reduced the experience to two SO’s on long haul
Reduced the cadet program to 150 hours with no licence
Now they want to :
Reduce Housing
Reduce P fund
Increase productivity by reducing overtime payments or increasing the threshold
Reduce leave ( maybe)
What is next:
3 man long haul
Reducing monthly salary
Time to draw the line in the sand.