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Beginning of the end?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Beginning of the end?

Old 6th Sep 2017, 09:32
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 120
Beginning of the end?

So, is the final battle about to begin?

Pilot pay and pensions targeted as Cathay Pacific looks to slash HK$1 billion in costs | South China Morning Post
bluesideoops is offline  
Old 6th Sep 2017, 09:51
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... the airline said it would in return offer a deal on better work schedules for its aircrew, the ability for pilots to move between aircraft types, and change its human resources procedures that pilots have previously been unhappy about.
The above is the norm in pretty much every airline. And we have to give concessions for it???? GC- WALK AWAY NOW!!!!!!
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 10:30
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 511
Gee, and no mention in that article of the massive fuel hedge and currency hedge losses that the business managers were responsible for. Just what is the cost benefit analysis for their expensive salaries, allowances, and bonuses?

It's those damn pilots! Only 14% of the workforce yet they account for half of the workforce costs! So what is our PR department suggesting when they release such misleading statistics to the press? That as only 14% of the workforce pilots should account for 14% of the workforce cost? Pilots should be paid a clerks salary?

Years and years of training, professional skill, qualifications, credentials, etc are just what every employee brings to the office cubicle. I suppose it's just logical that being responsible for 400 people, flying them in a made made aluminum tube, seven miles above the earth, at speeds approaching the speed of sound...is not worth more than a clerks salary???

It's sad, but that corrosive line of thinking explains why we are where we are....
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 10:44
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Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 52
I am sure the AOA is wording a very strong letter at the very moment of how disappointed they are with the email. Surely that will make the make the company shake in their boots and apologize. Then in another paragraph go on about how HPE will get us through this!

Can't help but see the chairman is already planning the layout of his management office for selling out the members on this one!
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 10:47
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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What percentage of the costs are managers and Directors (Don't forget to add in their bonuses and retirement travel perks)?
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 11:18
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: HK
Posts: 703
Simple, should be treated same way as office staff. Want 10% saving? Fire enough pilots to hit the target. No ground staff got their benefits reduced.

Of course that will mean less flights but such is life
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 11:43
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: somewhere above the sea
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Directors and executive officers make up 0.1% of the workforce, yet represent 0.6% of staff costs- so what's their point?
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Old 6th Sep 2017, 16:13
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Join Date: Jun 2001
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I don't think you've included their housing in the 0.6%. Correct me if I'm wrong.
( and their chauffered cars)
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 01:45
  #9 (permalink)  
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The linked article appears on the SCMP front page this morning. Open to page 3, and there is an article about expats in Asia. Concerning accommodation ... "One respondent described the cost as absurd".

When HPE was announced, I was quietly hopeful, ... as the premise is looking for WIN/WIN scenarios. Concessions from BOTH sides, seeking the greatest good for ALL. After 20+ years my naivety was stunning.

Despite the propaganda, Cathay's pain is short term. It is the cost of GAMBLING on fuel and currency. Instead they look for long term savings from its primary workforce.

Walk away. Do nothing. Sign nothing.
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 10:11
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Fragrant Harbour
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Seems because of the pilot shortage, their pay is gong up!

Does your job pay less than it did five years ago? - BBC News
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 11:30
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Mismanagements metrics obsessions SMH 210817
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 11:45
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Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Hong kong
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If you throw a frog in boiling water, it will jump out straight away. If you put a frog in water and then boil it, you end up with a dead frog.

We are the frog gentleman. We have to be smart enough to jump out now, before the water gets too hot!!!
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Old 7th Sep 2017, 14:51
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Originally Posted by Strewth View Post
I think this is remarkably insightful.

Let's say you have an hour driven process--like ours. But you don't really have enough people (or the right distribution of people with the right qualifications) to run the contract the way you want to under the terms and conditions there.

So your idea is put everyone 'on a string' and juggle them around as much as you can. You perceive this gives you added flexibility and added resources when all it does is make your own rosters collapse and increase usage of contractually guaranteed sick leave due fatigue, fatigue related illnesses (including both physical ailments exacerbated by fatigue and body clock swaps as well as family related problems which influence mental stability and fitness for flight) and broken parts (and as such because the problems weren't there in the past the guaranteed leave wasn't used all that much). You might then make an attempt to bridle this and find out that it's essentially impossible due to the fact that it's a contractually guaranteed award (not unlike pay) and the individual has a fiduciary duty to self, flying public, and regulatory agency not to fly unfit that exceeds any metric or agenda you might have (being similar to asking an individual to violate FTL limits while also running the risk of violating strong legislation in other jurisdictions).

Under a false metric, having all these folks 'on a string' (i.e. more days at work) and your scheduling folks really really busy might seem like you're increasing productivity. But exactly the opposite is happening.

Say fr' instance you put reserve before (or during) a published trip pattern. You're FTL limited and not really generating any more hours (i.e. productivity). You then pull the individual forward off his or her rostered trips and into a different one. SOMEONE has to then fill everything that person was going to do so you plug the hole with someone else (who had their own published pattern--which then collapses). And then have to fill THAT persons rostered trips, and so on. All you've really done is collapse your roster geometrically with each person used, increase the chance he or she will break at some point downline, and disable any hope of long range planning (which increases costs due to a steep overtime gradient and guaranteed minimum).

Now, with a false metric it SEEMS that everyone is working harder and you have greater productivity because your pilots are busy getting shifted around on the road more (or sitting on a string more) and your poor schedulers are always really really busy. But your assets 'on the road' more aren't really generating more hours; they're just sitting more in a place or condition that you're paying more for (and costing you a bunch more money in doing so which increases the more you shift them around). And your really really busy schedulers are really really busy due to a self-induced problem that didn't need to be there in the first place--at best it's just digging a bunch of holes and filling them all back up. More likely it's like digging that hole around the very supports that keep your building standing, so not only do you have to deal with the self-induced holes but also parts of your building collapsing due to something you didn't need to do in the first place.

Last edited by Shep69; 7th Sep 2017 at 21:47.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 06:02
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Join Date: Jul 2013
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Originally Posted by Frank W. Abagnale View Post
You must be on the 747.
There's the problem. Not to you directly FA, but the fact that too many have the view that "it doesn't affect me".

The company has done an extraordinary job of dividing the pilot group.

After all, why would an XYZ based CA/FO care about the terms of a ABC based FO/SO? Much less take part in any action on their behalf.

The whites vs Native American tribes comes to mind.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 15:31
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Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 155
can scmp publish anna's salary renumeration??
Anna Thompson's package according to Bloomberg
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 19:36
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Originally Posted by joebanana View Post
She doesn't make that much considering the scope of her responsibilities. That said, she does a horrible job, making her grossly overpaid.
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 20:22
  #17 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: The Twain
Posts: 90
Respect your point of view cxor but I disagree.

DFO is not rocket science, yes it has scope but to a generalist GMO type of manager it is only a small step above GMO. I used to give my wife, then a junior director in a big IT company some of the day to day challenges of the DFO back in the day, and she tossed them back like a soft ball.

You just need to have all your immediate staff levels onside. This is a serious difficulty with expat directors on CX. Your expert operations people will always create challenges, but if you don't have your local staff pulling for you, you are dead in the water.

Example, when as an expat manager you learn the local language to find out what the H... is going in the office, and who is doing the sabotage, the staff levels will quickly change to a patois using local slang.

The current DFO's remuneration in HK is a serious wedge, I know people in banks in HK with higher equivalent positions than a DFO who earn less. In international airlines it is also a higher than average remuneration for DFO equivalence outside of North America.

And then we get to competence. I have a feeling that as long as there is a suspect DFO in place, Merlin has his back covered and can apportion blame. If/When it goes t*ts up or gets sold cents on the dollar to a hedge fund there is a fall guy(ess).

Mind you when the the fuel hedges expire next year CX is going to be making one heck of a profit. I personally, and also as advised by a serious investment bank have been buying CX shares whenever they dropped below 12.

I have made investment mistakes before...
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Old 8th Sep 2017, 21:05
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
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Hard to argue with that. Good post! Cheers.
cxorcist is offline  
Old 9th Sep 2017, 01:44
  #19 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: hong kong
Posts: 415
She earns every bit of it
All that Flying experience
When the next typhoon arrives , you know she is going to be up there in the trenches helping out , making cups of tea and ordering ( and eating most of ) in muffins.
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Old 9th Sep 2017, 02:21
  #20 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Polar Route
Posts: 1,933
Let's face it. She is the epitome of a bean counter. No operational experience, no true understanding of how the product is delivered, she only really knows about numbers on a page. Since when has that been a recipe for success?
cxorcist is offline  

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