Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > Fragrant Harbour
Reload this Page >

Too little rest....?

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

Too little rest....?

Old 28th May 2016, 16:55
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Helsinki
Age: 46
Posts: 66
Talking BOOOOOOMMMM

Hugo Peroni, What a comeback. Hahahaha. Brilliant, that knocked the SHIT out of the Management.

Hey but Management, I think by reading your latest bs, I must say you've lost balls mate. This is the first time I've felt you guys really being desperate, hahaha. CC IS WORKING. Take that bi$#h.
gipilot is offline  
Old 28th May 2016, 20:20
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 353
Hugo you'll be handed a mobile phone by a company representative with the MLO on the other end, whether you're in HKG or an outstation/diversion airport!
Loopdeloop is offline  
Old 28th May 2016, 20:57
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by PPSept15 View Post
Once comment on the Almaty incident. I understand what the captain did, and I would probably have done the same. But from a public perspective viewpoint, grounding the plane in Almaty for 10 hours for rest, would be just what we needed to bring the problems here to the public attention.
300 passengers tweeting, and being interviewed by the media, about how they were stuck on a plane for 25 hours with a dead baby, would have put into stark focus the pitfalls of the 3 man issue.
The ever present problem is separation of industrial action from professional action. Some of us believe the two are separate.

We comply with the letter and intent of contract compliance: withdrawal of good will, contactable only when required and the training ban. But once at work, their job is to take the plane and it's passengers from point A to B in the safest and most efficient manner. That will sometimes requires commander's discretion.

There are legitimate reasons not to use commander's discretion after an en route diversion. Each situation is unique.

Stranding the passengers at an airport hotel for "crew rest" is unavoidable. It will be industrially effective. It will highlight the limitations resulting when long haul flights have 3 rather than 4 crew. We gain negotiating power. It will cost the company financially, generate negative publicity and damage the airline's reputation.

But choosing to strand passengers for industrial reasons can not be construed as professional.
Pain is offline  
Old 28th May 2016, 21:05
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: All Over
Posts: 471
With the haphazard and continuously changing way they are rostering us, the sleep pattern disruption, and the corresponding continuous fatigue levels we are facing, it COMPLETELY baffles me why ANYONE is considering using discretion except potentially in the most extreme cases (which involve bona-fide cases of extenuating circumstances involving humanitarian aid and assistance). Haven't there been enough safety flags thrown already ? Why would anyone choose to take additional risks as well as add to cumulative fatigue when the individual has become the only real safety backstop ?
Shep69 is offline  
Old 28th May 2016, 21:45
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 425
Pain: you said
But choosing to strand passengers for industrial reasons can not be construed as professional
On the face of it, any sane person would have to agree with you. Reality is not that simple, however.

How professional is it to run deliberately a profitable company into the ground over the course of 2 or so decades? How professional is it to avoid your legal obligations to your employees? How professional would it be to pervert the legal system (hypothetically speaking) in order to get the regulator to ignore your (illegal) decisions? How professional is it to perjure oneself in court? How professional is it to sack employees (and utterly destroy some lives) just to see your bonus increase? How professional is it to ignore the stipulations in your contract, whilst saying "see you in court!"? How professional is it to not know what aircraft you have flying under your Directorship?

I could go on, but Sunday night dinner is calling.
OK4Wire is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 02:23
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by OK4Wire View Post
Reality is not that simple, however. How professional is it to run deliberately a profitable company into the ground over the course of 2 or so decades?
Absolutely right. Reality is never that simple. There are always choices to be made. Some easy, some not.

The company has proceeded down a road which we see as detrimental, unprofessional. They have not negotiated in good faith and spoken in half truths. They have cut cost to the point the quality of the product is in question.

Are we choosing to stoop down to their level of unprofessionalism? Because they have been poor leaders we can act in an equally unprofessional manner, and that is OK?
Pain is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 02:43
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Hong kong
Posts: 39
Caving into these pressures to fight on and "get the job done" is why accidents happen.
rustyoldtin is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 12:47
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: home
Posts: 220
We do not believe smoke or fumes in the cockpit is a circumstance that is stressful. One of the latest diversions in SYA is a typical diversion that we train the pilots to cope.

There is not a vast amount of stress flying an overweight 777 into SYA, low ceiling,15 knot tailwind with smoke/fumes in the cockpit. We believe this so much as we convinced the Commander and the rest of the crew to fly out of SYA 5 hours after.

There is no psychological factors involved due to stress as our elite training system over the year have harden “The CPG” Pilots. We have trained them to be invincible.

We do not believe there was enough stress in that situation to warrant the aircraft being grounded. BA, American or any other One World Carrier would have flown out of SYA in a similar situation.The BA Fire in Las Vegas would have not been a stressful situation for a CX crew as we train for it and if there had been an aircraft available, CX would have demanded the same crew to use discretion and continue the flight.

If the SYA diversion aircraft were to have something tragically happen on departure, then the blame would have been surely on the Commander and the Crew as they are the last line of defense before crashing. We in Management take no responsibly for the Commanders actions as they are purely the Commanders decision.

So unless the aircraft burst into flames and comes close to Swiss Air 111, the crew of "The CPG" are expected to use discretion.

We are a GO airline and the MLO will make sure we are a GO airline. The pilots of "The CPG" are told not to declare "Mayday Fuel" until all your options are gone. Do not be proactive by carrying more fuel.

Professionalism has nothing to do with discretion. Discretion will be used within its means and beyond if need be to recover OUR passengers out of a diversion airport (If more time is needed “The CPG” Management will direct the CAD on the situation). There is no Professionalism in grounding an aircraft at a diversion airport after having an unstressful situation. There is no professionalism on behalf of the crew if they are tired, fatigued or just stressed out and can’t think properly after an unstressful situation. If you are after a minor incident, you should not be a “CPG” pilot.

Make your decision on discretion wisely, your career but less important, your life, depends on it.

To My Bonus
The Management.
The Management is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 12:59
  #29 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Brexitland
Posts: 1,138
Unfortunately that's EXACTLY how the real "Managers" think!!
Arfur Dent is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 13:35
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Hong Kong, SAR.
Posts: 263
The GMO was theatening the crew to go into discretion out of Almaty? Please tell me this isn't true.
Oasis is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 14:59
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 70
Not true. There was no to threat. Just told them they would be continuing. Or so rumour has it...
rhoshamboe is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 15:01
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: HK
Posts: 70
And for those that are a little thick, one could assume the threat was merely unstated.
rhoshamboe is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 17:47
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Milky Way
Posts: 218
It is no more unprofessional to deny CD in pursuit of our RP's than it is to utilize CC. It's a part of our profession and the only way to provide our GC negotiating capital to get our contract. Compliance does not have to be something you like, but it is a necessary evil to provide for our families. Harden the f#[email protected] up and join the team!

Why anyone would use CD on the 3 man European flights is truly amazing to me. Even a fully rostered daytime flight on bodyclock is too long to be safe with passengers aboard. The clock ticks for the disaster on that scenario.
BillytheKid is offline  
Old 29th May 2016, 18:15
  #34 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,229
This DL incident did not happen as described so I think you can unwrap yourselves from this particular cause and circumstance. Other bigger fish to fry
Spooky 2 is offline  
Old 30th May 2016, 02:09
  #35 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 159
I heard the GMO was running around checking with CAD if the Captain would be in trouble if they elected to continue and went over hours, if THEY decided to continue to HK.

Beijing was the other option and within hours if they decided not to press.

Haven't we been over all of this?
mr did is offline  
Old 30th May 2016, 03:22
  #36 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Asia
Posts: 557
The problem with senior management is that they all think the entire pilot group is still on A-scale, only taking 3 years to command and retiring with a P-fund worth 20-30 mill HKD.

Hence this constant "go" attitude of the GMO.
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 30th May 2016, 06:50
  #37 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: with the other ex-CX pond scum (a zoologist was once head of Flight Ops)
Posts: 1,792
...while in reality, most of us just don't give a stuff any more.

I would have thought that the 'go' attitude would be linked to the GMO's bonus and further career advancement.
Captain Dart is online now  
Old 30th May 2016, 10:32
  #38 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London
Posts: 1,539
Well, I'm SO concerned and 'worried' about June 1st, that the stress level has made it impossible for me to legally be operating an aircraft. I will therefore be doing the responsible thing according to my legal responsibilities according to CAD regulations. I'll let CC know when i'm once again fit for duty. Thank you.
Trafalgar is offline  
Old 30th May 2016, 12:07
  #39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 11
That's a very good idea Trafalgar. If the words of our DFO make you feel that way, you should take some time off.

BOO!

Originally Posted by Trafalgar View Post
Well, I'm SO concerned and 'worried' about June 1st, that the stress level has made it impossible for me to legally be operating an aircraft. I will therefore be doing the responsible thing according to my legal responsibilities according to CAD regulations. I'll let CC know when i'm once again fit for duty. Thank you.
Hugo Peroni the IV is offline  
Old 31st May 2016, 09:50
  #40 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 29
Originally Posted by BillytheKid View Post
It is no more unprofessional to deny CD in pursuit of our RP's than it is to utilize CC. It's a part of our profession and the only way to provide our GC negotiating capital to get our contract. Compliance does not have to be something you like, but it is a necessary evil to provide for our families. Harden the f#[email protected] up and join the team!
BtK
You are an oxymoron. Too smart by half.

At least you do conclude choosing not to use CD is unprofessional. But "that" is part of our profession?

At what level are you willing to stoop?

I am part of the team. But if you are suggesting that WE are not professional or do not act from principle, then you need to find another team.
Pain is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.