3 Hours 16 mins discretion?
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Basil. What would have happened if you had made to your destination on the third sector and had to divert. You know, the reason why you carry all that extra fuel?? Not 10 minutes over my friend, but hours. Why do people put themselves (and their passengers) at such risk???
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Basil,
Please tell me you are happily retired, and all of this recklessness you are professing to was "back in the good old days"?
When you (Basil) and the reckless KA crew decide to exceed the normal flight duty limits, you must remember that you are already exceeding your duty limits, and any incident you have during this time will call into question the reasons for using discretion.
The use of discretion is for, in the real world, unforeseen circumstances, and not for fixing the mess that other people create through poor planning.
Deciding on whether to use discretion is easy:
1) I am sitting on the apron of any airport and when calculating my return flight time and comparing it with the remaining duty, I can determine that it will exceed max duty, and hence is NOT unforeseen. Yes, we could still use discretion to continue, but is there a valid reason? Is it safe? Is it legal?
Therefore I should, in most circumstances, call the company and inform them that their aircraft will be able to depart after achieving a rest period.
2) If we had departed knowing that we could arrive before needing discretion, and en-route we encountered unforecast weather, or an aircraft had become disabled on a runway and this had resulted in arrival holding, we could now use discretion to extend our duty period!
The fact (allegedly) that the KA crew exceeded the limits of both the normal duty limit, and then the discretionary period is reckless, not to mention illegal, and just plain stupid, and in my opinion, they should be suspended, demoted, fined, and/or fired. The F/O could have easily solved the problem by walking off the flight deck. The Captain shouldn't have suggested it in the first place.
This type of behaviour is found at other 3rd world airlines, and not at KA. Our passengers expect a high level of safety. They pay a premium for it, and we have the responsibility to ensure that they receive a proper duty of care.
Please tell me you are happily retired, and all of this recklessness you are professing to was "back in the good old days"?
When you (Basil) and the reckless KA crew decide to exceed the normal flight duty limits, you must remember that you are already exceeding your duty limits, and any incident you have during this time will call into question the reasons for using discretion.
The use of discretion is for, in the real world, unforeseen circumstances, and not for fixing the mess that other people create through poor planning.
Deciding on whether to use discretion is easy:
1) I am sitting on the apron of any airport and when calculating my return flight time and comparing it with the remaining duty, I can determine that it will exceed max duty, and hence is NOT unforeseen. Yes, we could still use discretion to continue, but is there a valid reason? Is it safe? Is it legal?
Therefore I should, in most circumstances, call the company and inform them that their aircraft will be able to depart after achieving a rest period.
2) If we had departed knowing that we could arrive before needing discretion, and en-route we encountered unforecast weather, or an aircraft had become disabled on a runway and this had resulted in arrival holding, we could now use discretion to extend our duty period!
The fact (allegedly) that the KA crew exceeded the limits of both the normal duty limit, and then the discretionary period is reckless, not to mention illegal, and just plain stupid, and in my opinion, they should be suspended, demoted, fined, and/or fired. The F/O could have easily solved the problem by walking off the flight deck. The Captain shouldn't have suggested it in the first place.
This type of behaviour is found at other 3rd world airlines, and not at KA. Our passengers expect a high level of safety. They pay a premium for it, and we have the responsibility to ensure that they receive a proper duty of care.
Last edited by clear.right; 17th Mar 2016 at 22:34.
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Maybe
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wasn't there a relief crew at TPE already?
What justification was there to continue to HK then?
My guess is that CAD is already involved and I hope the responsible KA managers take appropriate action commensurate with the level of safety and SOP breaches that happened to prevent setting a precedence....
What justification was there to continue to HK then?
My guess is that CAD is already involved and I hope the responsible KA managers take appropriate action commensurate with the level of safety and SOP breaches that happened to prevent setting a precedence....
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This kind of stuff happens at CX too; remember the massive extension to the FDP when a jet went HKG-KUL diverted LANGKAWI (having missed out on PENANG)-KUL-HKG. The wannabe skipper was hanging in his straps on arrival into Hong Kong. Another f***ing idiot!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If the facts are as reported
There is absolutely nothing that can excuse this misguided course of action .
As a Captain she should have put her foot down and stayed on the correct side of the law . Overflying TPE where a relief crew was waiting was very poor judgement
There is absolutely nothing that can excuse this misguided course of action .
As a Captain she should have put her foot down and stayed on the correct side of the law . Overflying TPE where a relief crew was waiting was very poor judgement
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Up there
Posts: 202
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sign on 1725Z (0125L)
FTL 3 sectors - 9:30
3rd sector flight plan, blocks on 0600.
12:35 duty.
So 2:55 discretion without any unforeseen circumstances.
Welcome to the buzz word of normalisation of deviance.
FTL 3 sectors - 9:30
3rd sector flight plan, blocks on 0600.
12:35 duty.
So 2:55 discretion without any unforeseen circumstances.
Welcome to the buzz word of normalisation of deviance.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Tung Chung
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 3 hours max extension is a soft rule only. Case closed.
Now, this is what the young and impressionable are quoting as their interpretation of the spin coming from above. Dangerous. You can just see a new cadet captain overlying suitable airports on one engine ! Or similar variations.
The old heads need to sort this one out to avoid a future sacking or worse as the impressionable confuse soft rules for some, hard rules for others.
Now, this is what the young and impressionable are quoting as their interpretation of the spin coming from above. Dangerous. You can just see a new cadet captain overlying suitable airports on one engine ! Or similar variations.
The old heads need to sort this one out to avoid a future sacking or worse as the impressionable confuse soft rules for some, hard rules for others.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: uk
Posts: 155
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The rules are in place to protect the crews from exploitation by the employer.
They are also there to prevent excess fatigue becoming a major factor in an accident . Thereby also protecting the traveling public
There is a 2 hour Capt's discretion built into the limits to allow for unforeseen circumstances. In applying the discretion the Capt should take into account all factors including ,but not limited to , Crew Fatigue (of all pilots) , weather enroute and at destination, likely delays upon arrival , aircraft serviceability , stress levels , availability of alternative options ,
The rules clearly state that the 2 hour built in allowance may only be exceeded in an emergency . Getting home does not constitute an emergency
It's one thing to use discretion during a daylight flight but when you have been up all night, fatigue becomes a major factor, sometimes it's difficult to determine just how much sleep deprivation can cloud your decision making That's the reason the rules are there
They are also there to prevent excess fatigue becoming a major factor in an accident . Thereby also protecting the traveling public
There is a 2 hour Capt's discretion built into the limits to allow for unforeseen circumstances. In applying the discretion the Capt should take into account all factors including ,but not limited to , Crew Fatigue (of all pilots) , weather enroute and at destination, likely delays upon arrival , aircraft serviceability , stress levels , availability of alternative options ,
The rules clearly state that the 2 hour built in allowance may only be exceeded in an emergency . Getting home does not constitute an emergency
It's one thing to use discretion during a daylight flight but when you have been up all night, fatigue becomes a major factor, sometimes it's difficult to determine just how much sleep deprivation can cloud your decision making That's the reason the rules are there
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Hong Kong
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The maximum does extend to 3 hours for a standard FDP.
Extended only in an emergency, a situation presenting risk to the health and/or safety of crew and/or passengers, or endangering the lift of others.
If thats the definition of an emergency then these idiots were right to extend. Their just being airborne is an emergency!
Extended only in an emergency, a situation presenting risk to the health and/or safety of crew and/or passengers, or endangering the lift of others.
If thats the definition of an emergency then these idiots were right to extend. Their just being airborne is an emergency!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Nippi
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I bet the Capt says all the mouth music in proper sequence. After all that what important to being a good Capt with KA and CX. These KA and CX overlords are out to lunch. And they say American Airlines have low standards. Lol
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: GAFA
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/...205Z/RKPK/VHHH
The management would have you believe they held for an hour and landed on 07
The management would have you believe they held for an hour and landed on 07
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No insurance for last 16 minutes !!! Fact. Wonder how the passengers would have felt about that.
Not true. The pax have no control over the situation so pax legal liability insurance would pay out